McCain is American Hero.

How can these neocons in good conscience attack McCain like they are?

People like Limbaugh, Hannity, and Ann Coulter?

Obviously they have no conscience.

Or heart.

Being a hero or former Prisoner of War does not ensure one is qualified to be president.

Cato

How can these neocons in good conscience attack McCain like they are?

I'm not a neocon but I couldn't vote for McCain. He's arguably more liberal than Hillary Clinton.

He voted against tax cuts, sponsored leglislation that was an affront to the First Amendment, supported No Child Left Behind, supported amnesty for illegal aliens, caved on judges who would rule on the law, and is a democrat in all but name. No wonder you like him. Sure, his service to his country was exemplary. Why does he have to tout it? Service like that speaks for itself. He keeps talking about how he served for patriotism and not profit. There's nothing wrong with making a profit.

And straight talk? He spins more than a top.

shermangeneral wrote:How can these neocons in good conscience attack McCain like they are?

People like Limbaugh, Hannity, and Ann Coulter?

Obviously they have no conscience.

Or heart.

shermangeneral,
I would have more respect for your admiration for war heroes, if you also had contempt for draft-dodgers like Slick Willie.

Keli wrote:shermangeneral,
I would have more respect for your admiration for war heroes, if you also had contempt for draft-dodgers like Slick Willie.

We have a moral obligation to obey just laws. Likewise, we have a moral obligation to disobey unjust laws.

Neither "Slick Willie" nor anyone else had a moral duty to submit to laws that enabled the corrupt Commander-in-Chief, Lyndon Johnson, to conduct the Vietnam War under the bogus "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution".

Bill Clinton is a jackass. But if he was a draft-dodger in the Vietnam War era, then he was right in an era when it was dangerous to be right about the government being wrong.

Keli wrote:

shermangeneral wrote:How can these neocons in good conscience attack McCain like they are?

People like Limbaugh, Hannity, and Ann Coulter?

Obviously they have no conscience.

Or heart.

shermangeneral,
I would have more respect for your admiration for war heroes, if you also had contempt for draft-dodgers like Slick Willie.

Out of curiousity, how did Slick Willie dodge the draft.

Maybe you should have used GWB as your example Keli?

ziggy wrote:

Keli wrote:shermangeneral,
I would have more respect for your admiration for war heroes, if you also had contempt for draft-dodgers like Slick Willie.

We have a moral obligation to obey just laws. Likewise, we have a moral obligation to disobey unjust laws.

Neither "Slick Willie" nor anyone else had a moral duty to submit to laws that enabled the corrupt Commander-in-Chief, Lyndon Johnson, to conduct the Vietnam War under the bogus "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution".

Bill Clinton is a jackass. But if he was a draft-dodger in the Vietnam War era, then he was right in an era when it was dangerous to be right about the government being wrong.

As long as someone is willing to do the time for committing the crime, it is their right to disobey what they perceive an unjust law.

As long as someone is willing to do the time for committing the crime, it is their right to disobey what they perceive an unjust law.

Right. I agree that one should be willing to "do the time". It is the willingness to endure the consequences of civil disobedience that calls attention to the justness / unjustness of the object of protest. If citizens can flagrantly violate the law with impunity, no social justice purpose is demonstrated.

Aaron wrote: Out of curiousity, how did Slick Willie dodge the draft.

He didn't inhale.

Maybe you should have used GWB as your example Keli?

As an example of "draft dodging", .......... are you serious?

Maybe he should have used Ziggy as his example, ...... but no way could he have used GWB.

.

SamCogar wrote:

Maybe you should have used GWB as your example Keli?

As an example of "draft dodging", .......... are you serious?

Maybe he should have used Ziggy as his example, ...... but no way could he have used GWB..

Ziggy didn't dodge anything. He just agreed with what the guy at the induction station suggested- that Uncle Lyndon and Ziggy were not made for one another.

SamCogar wrote:

Aaron wrote: Out of curiousity, how did Slick Willie dodge the draft.

He didn't inhale.

Maybe you should have used GWB as your example Keli?

As an example of "draft dodging", .......... are you serious?

Maybe he should have used Ziggy as his example, ...... but no way could he have used GWB.

.

Why not. His father bought him a national guard positon to keep him from going to Vietnam or from getting drafted. How is that NOT draft dodging?

She's baackkk!!!

Say what you will about GWB, but at least he never protested against the US government on foreign soil like old Bubba. Where I come from we call that treason. What do you call it????

Aaron wrote: Why not. His father bought him a national guard positon to keep him from going to Vietnam or from getting drafted. How is that NOT draft dodging?

You sure as hell don't know very much about "joining a NG Unit" or even about how the "draft" worked, do you?

Here, start your smarts learning with this:

LOCAL BOARDS

A Selective Service Local Board is a group of five citizen volunteers whose mission, upon a draft, will be to decide who among the registrants in their community will receive deferments, postponements, or exemption from military service based on the individual registrant's circumstances and beliefs.

http://www.sss.gov/fslocal.htm

GEEEZE, iiffen Ziggy could get an "exemption" ...... I am damn sure GWB could have also.



.

Stephanie wrote:She's baackkk!!!

Say what you will about GWB, but at least he never protested against the US government on foreign soil like old Bubba. Where I come from we call that treason. What do you call it????

I thought you were from the United States of America???

Since when is protesting anything treason?

SamCogar wrote:

Aaron wrote: Why not. His father bought him a national guard positon to keep him from going to Vietnam or from getting drafted. How is that NOT draft dodging?

You sure as hell don't know very much about "joining a NG Unit" or even about how the "draft" worked, do you?

Here, start your smarts learning with this:

LOCAL BOARDS

A Selective Service Local Board is a group of five citizen volunteers whose mission, upon a draft, will be to decide who among the registrants in their community will receive deferments, postponements, or exemption from military service based on the individual registrant's circumstances and beliefs.

http://www.sss.gov/fslocal.htm

GEEEZE, iiffen Ziggy could get an "exemption" ...... I am damn sure GWB could have also.

.

You didn't answer my question Sam.

How is one's father purchasing a positon in a National Guard Unit that is already at 100+% capacity so you will not be drafted not DODGING???

And for the record, I served a little over 2 years in the National Guard after my regular Army discharge. I have a little bit of an idea what it takes to join?

Well Keli I don't think it is necessary to have contempt for someone else in order to recognize and honor McCain for his service and sacrifice.

Just like General Grant could respect General Lee.

Heck many of your rightwing comrades still seem to honor and respect Lee more than Grant or even General Sherman even to this day.

And Lee certainly did more disservice to the USA than a mere draft dodger.

I believe we should respect people for doing what they think is right sometimes even if they were wrong. I know I am not phrasing that well, but trust you understand what I mean.

Personally I can't vote for anyone who supports the continued occupation of Iraq.

But in McCain's case I believe his conviction is honest and genuine, just wrong.

So although I can't vote for him, I can still defend his honor, so to speak.

Even against his fair weather friends.

Aaron wrote:
You didn't answer my question Sam.

How is one's father purchasing a positon in a National Guard Unit that is already at 100+% capacity so you will not be drafted not DODGING???

And for the record, I served a little over 2 years in the National Guard after my regular Army discharge. I have a little bit of an idea what it takes to join?

Well Aaron, in that you served over 2 years in the National Guard ..... you will FIRST have to tell me how one "purchases a position" in said ....... before I can answer your question ....... because I sure as hell don't know how one can do it.

.

Well at least McCain is a man of principle.

So you can respect him, even while you disagree with him.

Unlike Romney, who will switch his opinion depending on what is popular with his immediate audience.

At one time I would have considered voting for him despite our differences.

But he scares me a little bit now.

Especially when his eyes glaze over.

I think his time has passed.

About 8 years ago.

I wonder if McCain's honor and principles will be any comfort to the Iranians when he bombs them?

shermangeneral wrote:Personally I can't vote for anyone who supports the continued occupation of Iraq.

The only choice you have left save a write in candidate is Ron Paul.

Well Aaron I guess I have unwittingly evolved in my criteria.

I have been saying for at least a year that I would "have difficulty" voting for anyone who supports the continued occupation.

Thank you for pointing that out.

I have been engaged in an internal struggle over that final step from "having difficulty" to flat out saying I won't do it.

So there you have it.

SamCogar wrote:

Aaron wrote:
You didn't answer my question Sam.

How is one's father purchasing a positon in a National Guard Unit that is already at 100+% capacity so you will not be drafted not DODGING???

And for the record, I served a little over 2 years in the National Guard after my regular Army discharge. I have a little bit of an idea what it takes to join?

Well Aaron, in that you served over 2 years in the National Guard ..... you will FIRST have to tell me how one "purchases a position" in said ....... before I can answer your question ....... because I sure as hell don't know how one can do it.

.

A couple of ways Sam. Either by 'buying' a politician or by 'buying' the AG of the Guard. All it takes is someone with enough power to issue the enlistment orders.

These numbers are from last spring when my oldest was looking to enlist so the could be a little different now. When he inquired with the WV Air National Guard recruiter, he was told he would have to be the 'perfect' candidate as that unit was running at a little over 100% capacity. When he spoke with an Army NG recruiter, they tried to steer him to an MP unit based out of Dunbar or a transportation unit based out of Huntington, I beleive, both of which were running at less then 70% capacity.

Guess which units spend more time on ground in Iraq Sammy???

And guess who can get someone assigned to the Air National Guard Sammy???

I'll give you 3 guesses on both and your first 2 don't count.

Well at least McCain is a man of principle.

So you can respect him, even while you disagree with him.

Unlike Romney, who will switch his opinion depending on what is popular with his immediate audience

So, McCain who switched his position on amnesty for illegal aliens did it out of principle while Romney switched his position on abortion out of convenience?

shermangeneral wrote:Well Aaron I guess I have unwittingly evolved in my criteria.

I have been saying for at least a year that I would "have difficulty" voting for anyone who supports the continued occupation.

Thank you for pointing that out.

I have been engaged in an internal struggle over that final step from "having difficulty" to flat out saying I won't do it.

So there you have it.

There I have what? If Iraq is a deal buster for you, you either have to vote for Ron Paul or Mike Gravel (I forgot him earlier) or write in Dennis Kucinich. Those are the only candidates from the major parties that would do what you request.

But somehow I don't think Iraq is as much of a deal breaker as you want to make out. I'd venture to say that if Hillary had the democrat nomination and Ron Paul had the Republican nomination that you would vote for Hillary.

Well OC there is a difference in what McCain did on immigration and what Romney did across the board.

However your point is well taken.

I still think McCain is an honorable man and part of me takes offense when people attack him.

But I do think his time has passed and I will not be voting for him.

I just like him.

However, I think Romney is too plastic.

And they are both way off base when they start talking about us Democrats waving a white flag.

I have said from the beginning we had the last public hanging in WV right here in Jackson County and it would be fine by me if they brought bin Laden right back here to the Courthouse for trial and dispatch.