Women With Suntans Will Be Arrested, Iran Police Chief Warns

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:Christianity as it has been practiced by people the world over for almost two thousand years is largely evil, yes. There may have been a few exceptions here and there for very short periods of time. But overall Christianity has done far more to wreck havoc and hell on earth upon mankind than all the small amounts of good it may have ever done sometime or somewhere.

That's an opinion. What I would consider to be a bad one but an opinion none the less.

Sure it's an opinion. That is what we do here- post our opinions.

And this, too, just an opinion, and just as "bad":

Cato wrote: All scripture is given by the inspiration of God. Romans is an inspired book. ..................... Simply you may want to pick and choose, but in all honesty you can't.

https://gazzfriends.forumotion.com/national-politics-f6/oh-mike-t4388-45.htm

It may be Cato's opinion that we can't "pick and choose". But in a more or less free society we pick and choose every day. That is what freedom (and including freedom of religion) is about- deciding for ourselves what we believe.

Aaron wrote:That's an opinion. What I would consider to be a bad one but an opinion none the less.

And from just a few posts up, this is an opinion, and one i would consider to be a "bad one", but an opinion none the less:

Aaron wrote:But there is also much good that comes from it as well, from a simple act of kindness to the homeless shelters and food pantry's given freely. And that is just the very tip of the iceberg of all that is good that is done in the name of Christianity so for you or Ziggy to equate the religion to evil, I submit you are both wrong.

So what's your point?

quote=Cato
So again I ask, is it christainity itself that is evil or is it how some have used christianity that is evil?

Christianity as we know it was invented by evil people for evil purposes- going back at least as far as Emperor Constantine whose Council of Nicea- despite your assertion that we "can't pick and choose"- very much got to pick and choose what was included in the Nicean Creed.

My point is Christianity was not invented by Constantine at the council of Nicia, it was invented by God with the resurrection of Christ and there is nothing evil about it.

What comes of it, whether it be good, bad or indifferent comes from men like you and me, Cato and Mike, Sam and Keli take something that is pure and use it in a manner of our choosing.

You want to blame the religion instead of the person committing the acts and that is where you are wrong.

Ziggy, Stephanie,

First, with regard to organized religion, I don't recognize any of the protestant churches of catholic church as representative of christainity. At best they are many indivdual's view of what christainity ought to be or what it should represent.

As each of you should be more than well aware I preach that standards exist and are absolute. Organized religion is a fine example of what happens when the standard is pushed to the side or ignored. Yes, each of you are quite correct a lot of evil has come from man's use of christainity. The key words in here are "Man's Use" of Christainty. Man has so many times chosen to pervert or ignore the standard inorder to mold christainity into his view so as to justify his agenda. For example, if you read Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli's The Art of War, he will point out how religion can be used to convience people to fight and die for a cause. We see that today, both in this nation and in muslim countries.

The question that has to be dealt with is, is this Christainity or is it the misuse and misapplication of Christainity. I like to think I know the bible fairly well and what I see today both in organized religion and in man's use of Christainity is not what the standard contains or produces if applied properly and honestly.

What I see when I look at the standard is not hate, not greed, not willing being marytred for the sake of the ruler of a nation or killing others at the whim of a ruler. I can't find any protestant church of the catholic church in the scriptures.

What I see is in the standard is liberty, because you are given the ability to choose. I see indivdual responsibility. I see respect for women and actually all mankind. I see one's responsibility to thier family. I see a command tob e benevolent. I see the command to submit to the authorities as much as is possible for a follower fo christ to do, and I see the admonition to live a quiet and peaceful life. Finally, I don't see the command to force anyone to believe or be a christain. What I see is the command to teach or preach and then to allow a person to choose for themselves what they will believe.

Man's use of Christainity is much like the Mafia's use of firearms. It isn't the firearm that is evil, it is how it is used. Yes, Ziggy and Stephanie, christainty has been used to to justify some very evil acts, but that isn't what christainity is.

Cato

Stephanie wrote:

Aaron,

I don't think it's a good thing. I view organized religion as bad for humanity. I don't see how I can make it any clearer than that. See my response to Cato above.

Because you only choose to see only the bad. You're assuming that were there organized religion that humanity would be better off. Prior to the white mans arrival on this land, Americian Indians, for about a thousand years, earned the savage label affixed them a hundred fold where there is no organized religion.

On the other hand, how many hungry people will be fed in the name of organized religion today alone?

Our views differ.

Stephanie wrote:First of all, I didn't say it was evil. I said I don't think it's a good thing.

How many people have suffered and died at the hands of Christians, simply because they were not Christian, or perhaps not the right variety of Christian?

How many people have been slaughtered because they were Christian?

I'm pretty sure Buddhists are a peaceful group. You don't here tell of those folks waging wars or bilking little old ladies. Still, being Buddhist hasn't proved to be very good for your health or economic well-being.

You don't have to be a Christian to be charitable. Christianity has impeded a lot of social progress too. For centuries women were oppressed, and in a lot of sects they still are.

Hi Stephanie,

I'm presently surrounded by killer llamas trying to impede any difficult thought, but here goes a few.

Obviously you do not need to be Christian to be charitable. Some of the most charitable people I know are atheists. The question is whether Christianity makes someone more charitable than they would have been without it. In my own case the answer is a definite yes.

As to the point of people having been slaughtered in the name of religion, people have been slaughtered due to race and land territory as well. Are races and land evil also, or a bad thing for humanity?

Let me ask you to try out this thought experiment: If you were to be asked if you wanted to be dropped in a predominately atheist country in 1970, or in a predominately Christian country in 1970, with no other information available, which would you choose?

One more (and this one I have stolen). If you were walking in a rough spot of Kanawha City and saw seven or eight teenage boys walking towards you, would you be more worried or less worried if you found out that they had just left a Bible study?

Aaron wrote:My point is Christianity was not invented by Constantine at the council of Nicia, it was invented by God with the resurrection of Christ and there is nothing evil about it.

What comes of it, whether it be good, bad or indifferent comes from men like you and me, Cato and Mike, Sam and Keli take something that is pure and use it in a manner of our choosing.

You want to blame the religion instead of the person committing the acts and that is where you are wrong.

And this, too, is an opinion.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:My point is Christianity was not invented by Constantine at the council of Nicia, it was invented by God with the resurrection of Christ and there is nothing evil about it.

What comes of it, whether it be good, bad or indifferent comes from men like you and me, Cato and Mike, Sam and Keli take something that is pure and use it in a manner of our choosing.

You want to blame the religion instead of the person committing the acts and that is where you are wrong.

And this, too, is an opinion.

Yes it is an opinion Ziggy. The difference though is this opinion is based on sound logic and solid reasoning, thus it is a good one.

Anything else?

Can Black Muslims get sun tans?

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:My point is Christianity was not invented by Constantine at the council of Nicia, it was invented by God with the resurrection of Christ and there is nothing evil about it.

What comes of it, whether it be good, bad or indifferent comes from men like you and me, Cato and Mike, Sam and Keli take something that is pure and use it in a manner of our choosing.

You want to blame the religion instead of the person committing the acts and that is where you are wrong.

And this, too, is an opinion.

Yes it is an opinion Ziggy. The difference though is this opinion is based on sound logic and solid reasoning, thus it is a good one.

Anything else?

All opinions are based on sound logic and sold reasoning, according to the holders of those opinions, of which you are one more. That does not make your opinion that Christianity was invented by God with the resurrection of Christ worth any less- but not worth any more, either.

Aaron wrote:

Stephanie wrote:

Aaron,

I don't think it's a good thing. I view organized religion as bad for humanity. I don't see how I can make it any clearer than that. See my response to Cato above.

Because you only choose to see only the bad. You're assuming that were there organized religion that humanity would be better off. Prior to the white mans arrival on this land, Americian Indians, for about a thousand years, earned the savage label affixed them a hundred fold where there is no organized religion.

On the other hand, how many hungry people will be fed in the name of organized religion today alone?

Our views differ.

Aaron,

I simply cannot believe you said that. With all of your knowlege of history, how can it possibly be you are so completely clueless when it comes to the culture of the native peoples of this land. Talk about a really broad brush.

I am not choosing only to see the bad, Aaron. I see some good too. If I did not I would affix the label evil to a number of the world's major religions, but I have not. Cato has tried to goad me into doing it, but he can't.

You are assuming that people can be kind and charitable only if they believe some higher power commands them to. You seem to share the belief that only people who participate in organized religion have compassion or empathy. That simply is not true.

My point is Christianity was not invented by Constantine at the council of Nicia, it was invented by God with the resurrection of Christ and there is nothing evil about it.

What comes of it, whether it be good, bad or indifferent comes from men like you and me, Cato and Mike, Sam and Keli take something that is pure and use it in a manner of our choosing.

You want to blame the religion instead of the person committing the acts and that is where you are wrong.

Aaron, you feel that way because you believe things I absolutely do not. I absolutely do not believe that some all knowing, all powerful, god created heaven, and earth, and everything on it, including mankind, and he had no choice but to subject his only son to extreme cruelty in order to prevent the beings he created from suffering in the hell that he created. If he were all powerful he could end suffering. If he were kind and loving he would. If he's not kind and loving, I'm all set. I'll take my chances in hell with the Dahli Lama.

I have absolutely no clue what church a guy like Cato would attend. Is he Catholic? I don't think so. I don't know. Cato, you're not a protestant, are you Roman Catholic, some sort of Orthodox? You're sure not a UU member. I'm lost.

However, I think you pick and choose what you wish to adhere to in the bible, just like every other Christian, from every Christian sect. Christ said, whatever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me. That's easy for me to remember because it's said at EVERY Mass and I attended hundreds. That sounds to me like, treat everyone as you would treat me. That would include homosexuals and fornicators.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:My point is Christianity was not invented by Constantine at the council of Nicia, it was invented by God with the resurrection of Christ and there is nothing evil about it.

What comes of it, whether it be good, bad or indifferent comes from men like you and me, Cato and Mike, Sam and Keli take something that is pure and use it in a manner of our choosing.

You want to blame the religion instead of the person committing the acts and that is where you are wrong.

And this, too, is an opinion.

Yes it is an opinion Ziggy. The difference though is this opinion is based on sound logic and solid reasoning, thus it is a good one.

Anything else?

All opinions are based on sound logic and sold reasoning, according to the holders of those opinions, of which you are one more. That does not make your opinion that Christianity was invented by God with the resurrection of Christ worth any less- but not worth any more, either.

I knew you would say that to which I say, to those who do not believe it no it makes no difference. To those who do, it does.

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

I simply cannot believe you said that. With all of your knowlege of history, how can it possibly be you are so completely clueless when it comes to the culture of the native peoples of this land. Talk about a really broad brush.

Really? So educate me then. Show me were all Indians shared a coke and a smile and lived in perfect harmony with no murder, rape, inter tribal conflicts or wars until the white man got here. I'm in the learning mood so the battles half done.

Stephanie wrote:I am not choosing only to see the bad, Aaron. I see some good too. If I did not I would affix the label evil to a number of the world's major religions, but I have not. Cato has tried to goad me into doing it, but he can't.

So you only pick Christianity as evil? Why?

Stephanie wrote:You are assuming that people can be kind and charitable only if they believe some higher power commands them to. You seem to share the belief that only people who participate in organized religion have compassion or empathy. That simply is not true.

No, I'm not assuming that all that are charitable do so because of organized religion. I'm stating that many who are charitable do so because of their belief system which includes organized religion.

I said you painted with a really broad brush. I never said they were all peaceful or that none of them were violent. Some of the most atrocious acts committed by the indigenous people of the "New World" were done to appease gods they thought were angry. Smacks of organized religion to me, but apparently not to you.

Was Squanto a savage?

Is all religion organized and does it have to be organized to be evil or is all religion evil?

Stephanie wrote:I said you painted with a really broad brush. I never said they were all peaceful or that none of them were violent. Some of the most atrocious acts committed by the indigenous people of the "New World" were done to appease gods they thought were angry. Smacks of organized religion to me, but apparently not to you.

Was Squanto a savage?

Must one organized religion condemn all of them?

Additionally, the use of physics led to the atomic bomb, which killed thousands of innocent people. Is therefore physics to be placed on the level with organized religion?

Stephanie,

I am courious, what is your idea of non organized religion?

Cato

Aaron wrote:Is all religion organized and does it have to be organized to be evil or is all religion evil?

Why do you want to put words in my mouth? I never said Christianity is evil. I said it isn't good. Boy you guys only see things in black & white.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a definition of "organized religion" but I've typed it into google and we'll see what comes up. I view religion as "organized" when a group shares beliefs and has either an individual, or subgroup telling the followers how to behave, or what actions they need to take.

Now let's see what I googled.....

1. an institution to express belief in a divine power

Hyponyms (each of the following is a kind of "organized religion"):


Christian church; church (one of the groups of Christians who have their own beliefs and forms of worship)

religious order; religious sect; sect (a subdivision of a larger religious group)

established church (the church that is recognized as the official church of a nation)

Shinto (the native religion and former ethnic cult of Japan)

Church of Scientology; Scientology (a new religion founded by L. Ron Hubbard in 1955 and characterized by a belief in the power of a person's spirit to clear itself of past painful experiences through self-knowledge and spiritual fulfillment)

Khalsa (the group of initiated Sikhs to which devout orthodox Sikhs are ritually admitted at puberty; founded by the tenth and last Guru in 1699)

Buddhism (a religion represented by the many groups (especially in Asia) that profess various forms of the Buddhist doctrine and that venerate Buddha)

Taoism (religion adhering to the teaching of Lao-tzu)

Hindooism; Hinduism (the predominant religion of India; characterized by a caste system and belief in reincarnation)

Hebraism; Jewish religion; Judaism (Jews collectively who practice a religion based on the Torah and the Talmud)

cult (adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices)

Stephanie wrote:I view religion as "organized" when a group shares beliefs and has either an individual, or subgroup telling the followers how to behave, or what actions they need to take.

And that applied to American Indians?

SheikBen wrote:

Stephanie wrote:I said you painted with a really broad brush. I never said they were all peaceful or that none of them were violent. Some of the most atrocious acts committed by the indigenous people of the "New World" were done to appease gods they thought were angry. Smacks of organized religion to me, but apparently not to you.

Was Squanto a savage?

Must one organized religion condemn all of them?

Additionally, the use of physics led to the atomic bomb, which killed thousands of innocent people. Is therefore physics to be placed on the level with organized religion?

Mike, I don't have a clue about physics. Thinking about thinking about physics hurts my head. Have you ever watched The Big Bang Theory? We are big fans over here. There is an episode where Penny asks Sheldon to explain what Leonard does at work for her. Pretend I'm Penny.

Physics is what it is, though. There are laws of physics that people discovered, they didn't invent them did they? Bernoulli's Principal is what it is. Bernoulli figured that out somehow. It doesn't require faith. It just requires a capacity for knowlege and understanding.

Aaron wrote:

Stephanie wrote:I view religion as "organized" when a group shares beliefs and has either an individual, or subgroup telling the followers how to behave, or what actions they need to take.

And that applied to American Indians?

Was Squanto a savage?

Stephanie,

Yes, but the consequences of physics do not make physics any less true, and the same goes for organized religion.

Back to my two thought experiments, however. 1-If you could be dropped in a predominately atheist or a Christian country, knowing nothing else about the given country, which would you choose and why?


2-If you were approached on the street by seven or eight rough looking, young men, would you be more concerned or less concerned if you learned they had just left a Bible study?

Mike,

Physics doesn't discriminate, Mike. Religion does.

I'd take the atheist country, knowing absolutely nothing else. If I had more information I might make another choice. I made my choice based upon the fact that there are some forms of Christianity that focus wayyy too much on the fire and brimstone and far too little on Jesus was a pretty nice man who wanted everybody to be kind to one another.

Some are very intolerant and are heavy with the proselytizing and I just don't have the patience for it. I'd take my chances with the atheists although I know there are a few who are just as pushy as the Chrisitians I'm speaking of.