Palestinians and Libertarians

Cato wrote:

Stephanie wrote:What can "we" do about China, North Korea or Iran?

Typically, who does the North Korean government hurt? Who does the Iranian government typically harm? These nations hurt their own people. They oppress their own citizens. That is tragic, but it isn't our business. They aren't using our money to do it. We don't even purchase oil from Iran.

Short of launching military strikes against North Korea & Iran, I see little to nothing the United States of America or her people can do about their bad behavior. I don't see that as being the case with Israel.

I don't know why you can't understand that. I don't complain as much about those countries for the two reasons I've stated before.....they aren't using US taxpayer money to fund their aggression. Israel is using our money and weapons they receive from the United States.

I don't want our government to strike North Korea or Iran. If we yell loud enough perhaps that's what the brain drain in Washington will do. I'm not willing to risk it.

If we yell loud enough about US money funding the ethnic cleansing of the Holy Land, perhaps that will change.

All that aside, when was the last time North Korea, China, or Iran killed a US citizen? When was the last time North Korea, China or Iran kidnapped and detained a US citizen from anywhere other than within the internationally recognized borders of their own country? Israel has done it many times.

And again for the umpteenth time I don't want the politicians doing anything either. I don't know exactly how I can make that any clearer to you. And again my question is not about what our government does it about your personal views regarding Israel, which you constantly stand and condemn. I want to know why you condemn Israel and not North Korea or Iran or China for the atrosities they commit. Do you just hate Jews or what?

Stephanie wrote:

Keli wrote:

Stephanie wrote:I know for a FACT those boats were NOT entering Israeli waters and once again the Israeli government played judge, jury and executioner.

I can't believe the God of the Bible would be pleased at all of this bloodshed for wealth and power.

Wealth and power? How about health and security? How many rockets and mortars do the Gazans fire into Israel everyday? Th fanatical Arabs want nothing less than the total destruction of the state of Israel--every man woman and child. The people of Germany and Poland said, "Why don't the Jews go back to Israel?" The UN agreed with the idea. Now, the world wants them dead? And, the world and many libertarians condone it.

Terry, you know I am fond of you and consider you to be a treasured friend, but BULLSHIT!

The fanatical Zionists want that land. PERIOD. They don't care who they have to kill to get it.

SheikBen wrote:That's a curious point, Keli, that I find intriguing. I do believe that this will ultimately be the land for the Jews because God has said so. My own opinions (and the acts of nations, including our own) are preciously irrelevant to that score.

But on a purely secular level, Stephanie, do not the Jews have a longer history in that land than the Palestinians?

Stephanie wrote:

You're the one bringing up religion, Cato. I don't have a problem with Jews. I have a problem with genocide, which the Zionist Israeli government has been practicing for decades. I have a problem with fanatical Zionists, Christian and Jew alike. I have a problem with war crimes and land grabs and oppression.

SheikBen wrote:That's a curious point, Keli, that I find intriguing. I do believe that this will ultimately be the land for the Jews because God has said so. My own opinions (and the acts of nations, including our own) are preciously irrelevant to that score.

But on a purely secular level, Stephanie, do not the Jews have a longer history in that land than the Palestinians?

Stephanie wrote:

SheikBen wrote:That's a curious point, Keli, that I find intriguing. I do believe that this will ultimately be the land for the Jews because God has said so. My own opinions (and the acts of nations, including our own) are preciously irrelevant to that score.

But on a purely secular level, Stephanie, do not the Jews have a longer history in that land than the Palestinians?

You can't even talk on a purely secular level, Mike. The Arabs have the longer history in that land. The fact that some of those Arabs are Jewish does not give the Jews claim to the entire region. Some of the Arabs are Muslim and some are Christian and a large percentage of the Israeli Jews claiming Israel as their ancestral home aren't even Arab.

Stephanie wrote:More bullshit! Neither the people living there, nor the UN, nor Great Britian handed over Gaza, the West Bank, Jerusalem or the Golan Heights to the Jews.

Israel needs to get out of the Occupied Territories and the US government needs to stop funding and arming them all so they can continue killing each other.

Stephanie wrote:More bullshit! Neither the people living there, nor the UN, nor Great Britian handed over Gaza, the West Bank, Jerusalem or the Golan Heights to the Jews.

Israel needs to get out of the Occupied Territories and the US government needs to stop funding and arming them all so they can continue killing each other.

What about the Right by Conquest?

ohio county wrote:If what you say is true: that the Jews were never invited into Israel, then shouldn't Americans "get the hell" out of America and return to Germany, Poland, and other countries?

What about the Right by Conquest?

Stephanie wrote:

ohio county wrote:If what you say is true: that the Jews were never invited into Israel, then shouldn't Americans "get the hell" out of America and return to Germany, Poland, and other countries?

What about the Right by Conquest?

Oh, gentlemen........I've had a rough couple of days with my cats. Sorry it has taken so long to respond. Allie (1 y/o cat) woke me up at 5 am with a serious eye injury so I had to rush her off to the vet and when I got home I almost turned around and went back with nearly 19 y/o Sylvester, who I found flopped by the front door unable to walk. He is dying, no doubt, but he is walking a bit and doesn't seem to be in pain. He's just sort of fading away. He has been a very loving and loyal companion for 18 years and 9 months and I know that some of you understand what I'm going through. Sylvester is a very important part of my family.

We can't undo what happened to Native Americans hundreds of years ago. Some tribes no longer exist at all. Some of us have their blood flowing through our veins.....I may, my grandfather claimed it to be so. My husband is part Cherokee. My point is those people are gone and the decendents who remain are American. They enjoy all the rights and responsibilities of every other American citizen. Many of them enjoy special rights and benefits that provide them with incredible opportunities and enviable lifestyles. They are free to travel, work, and participate in our form of government.

The Israelis continue to expand settlements and are actively engaged in genocide. Palestinians continue to be refugees and prisoners. Israel has turned Gaza into the largest concentration camp in world history, and they're using American money to do it.

Perhaps you folks are alright with all of that. I am not. I'm not advocating the US fund the Palestinians. I'm not advocating we protect them. I just want to stop funding and protecting the brutal regime intent on wiping them off the face of the earth.

To my knowlege, there is no law prohibiting any of you from sending your personal wealth to the Israelis if you support their actions. I wish you wouldn't, but you can.

On the other hand, I find absolutely nothing in our Constitution that allows for our government to confiscate money from the American people and send it to Israel in the form of cash and tanks and bombs. I want to make them stop doing so.

Stephanie wrote:

On the other hand, I find absolutely nothing in our Constitution that allows for our government to confiscate money from the American people and send it to Israel in the form of cash and tanks and bombs. I want to make them stop doing so.

You are aware that the United States provides military aide to Saudi Arabia, I hope. For example, Saudi Arabia is one of the most oppressive regimes around. You get quite verbal about what Israel is doing to the Palastinians, but you say little about what Saudi Arabia does to women and peoples of faith other than their brand of Islam.

Stephanie wrote:
The US provides aid to a lot of countries, Cato. A lot of the regimes they send money to use that money to victimize and oppress people. Much of the money we send to nations in that region is sent to appease them regarding Israel. What do you think all that money we're sending Egypt is for?

Saudi Arabia isn't using US funds to occupy other people. What they're doing is atrocious, no doubt, but they aren't leading the US down a path that leads to war, the way Israel does. We aren't sanctioning Iran because they pose a threat to us, we're sanctioning Iran because they pose a threat to Israel.

Ziggy's signature line is accurate, before Israel we had no enemies in the Middle East. They may not necessarily have been our allies, but they weren't interested in attacking us either.

Finally, the thing that pisses me off the most is that even though we have been protecting and funding them for decades they commit acts of espionage against us. As far as I'm concerned Israel is one of the most dangerous enemies the United States has. I'm all for keeping your friends close and your enemies closer, but you have to be willing and able to recognize just who your enemies are.

Stephanie wrote:Thanks, Keli. Allie's eye will be OK. I still don't know what she did to it though. Sylvester has had a really good life with me, I assure you. lol I spoil him worse than the kids. He's still eating & drinking so he may have a little time left yet.

I think a Libertarian POTUS would likely send only humanitarian aid and even that on a limited basis.

I don't know Congressman Paul's voting record on foreign aid. I would think he has consistantly voted against it for a very long time, but I don't know that for fact. You've made me curious enough to go look, though.

ohio county wrote:If what you say is true: that the Jews were never invited into Israel, then shouldn't Americans "get the hell" out of America and return to Germany, Poland, and other countries?

What about the Right by Conquest?

"That the aggressor, who puts himself into the state of war with another, and unjustly invades another man's right, can, by such an unjust war, never come to have a right over the conquered, will be easily agreed by all men, who will not think that robbers and pirates have a right of empire over whomsoever they have force enough to master, or that men are bound by promises which unlawful force extorts from them.

Should a robber break into my house, and, with a dagger at my throat, make me seal deeds to convey my estate to him, would this give him any title? Just such a title by his sword has an unjust conqueror who forces me into submission. The injury and the crime is equal, whether committed by the wearer of a crown or some petty villain.

The title of the offender and the number of his followers make no difference in the offence, unless it be to aggravate it. The only difference is, great robbers punish little ones to keep them in their obedience; but the great ones are rewarded with laurels and triumphs, because they are too big for the weak hands of justice in this world, and have the power in their own possession which should punish offenders." John Locke - 1632-1704

http://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtreat.htm