Market Based Morality?

Most of the coal had been taken from McDowell County by the time even one cent of severance tax had been levied on coal mined in West Virginia late in the 20th century. McDowell County would be better off today had the political pimps for the coal industry not occupied the WV statehouse for more than a hundred years. .

And therein lies the motive to this entire thread. There are many who believe the sons shall pay for the sins of their fathers and their fathers before them. Todays corporations have been found guilty by those on the left. In their eyes, the guilt has been established.

ziggy wrote:If you are trying to put words in my mouth, I ask you to not do that. That is not what I said, nor what I meant.

I was re-reading some stuff and I guess I missed this joke. I've really got to be careful with reading and drinking my morning coffee. Sooner or later It's going to ruin my computer.

SamCogar wrote:

ziggy wrote: I believe that corporations' are obsessed with having their bidders control virtually all of government- including the salaries, wages and other benefits of public employees. When I go to the WV state legislature on certain lobby says, I do not see your referenced blue-haired little old ladies wearing tennis shoes among the hordes of lobbyists. I see mostly male, "stripey suited" (to use a Shermanism) lobbyists identified by the registered lobbyists handbook and spending reports as representing and paid by- quess what- by corporations. By any reasonable measure, corporations are a major player in American economics and politics- including in Wisconsin.

So Mr. ZIGGY, please tell us all ........ what would be the end results suffered by corporations ....... iffen those "mostly male, "stripey suited" (to use a Shermanism) lobbyists identified by the registered lobbyists handbook and spending reports as representing and paid by- quess what- by corporations" ........ ceased to ply their trade in Legislative Offices, etc., all across the US?

The result would likely be less government obsession with corporate political agendas.

The result would likely be less government obsession with corporate political agendas.

You don't think part of the "shellacking" of 2010 was a public repudiation of an administration obsessed with Big Labor's political agendas? I'd gladly vote against corporate lobbyists today if you'd reject the Big Labor agenda including open borders, statism, and bigger government.

In an effort to answer for myself what corporations have to do with the budget kerfluffle in Wisconsin I found this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-lakoff/the-real-issues-a-wiscons_b_828640.html

Didn't we start this thread with this cat?

Eventually? Eventually when? If that coal and gas and timber is on or beneath land owned by a corporation, or private citizens willing to sell or lease the rights to those resources to a corporation, they have a right to exploit those resources, Ziggy. If the state makes the cost of doing so too high, the gas and coal and little bit of oil stay in the ground and the trees stand for a few more years and unemployment in WV continues to climb. Waiting until there is no more coal to mine or trees to cut in more business friendly locations does nothing to put food on the tables or shoes on the feet or a roof over the heads of families with unemployed or underemployed men and women.

You talk about McDowell County, tell me something, Ziggy. What are the labor unions doing for the citizens of McDowell County? What has 80 years of liberal political domination done for the people of McDowell County? The children live in poverty. The lack of infrastructure hinders any serious hope of economic recovery. McDowell County didn't run out of resources. Cheaper coal became available from the west around the same time the industry they were supplying to begin with was hemmoraging due to foreign competition.

Where are the union bosses, Ziggy? Where are all those folks in the fancy suits that made enviable livings off the dues of union members? How are they helping McDowell County now? How have they helpd McDowell County these past 30 years?

It's amazing you bring up McDowell County now because I plan on visiting Welch very soon with a few of my friends. I've never been. I want to see for myself what has been described as a wealth of timber. There in no doubt coal remains and certainly there is natural gas. I don't hear word one from any of the Democrats, from Manchin to Rockefeller to Rahall to Tomblin about any plans for the economic development of McDowell County. I haven't heard anything out of Jesse Johnson either on improving the lives of the men, women & children down there.

In fact, all I heard out of Johnson & Kessler yesterday was about how union workers weren't going to give up a damn thing to solve the financial mess where in. Nope, public employees and other union members won't give up a damn thing but nobody made a peep about who was going to pay for it all.

If that coal and gas and timber is on or beneath land owned by a corporation, or private citizens willing to sell or lease the rights to those resources to a corporation, they have a right to exploit those resources, Ziggy.

They do- but only to the extent that they do so without externalizing the environmental and economic costs of that exploitation onto the whole of society. Corporations and their apologists hate the "socialism" of corporate profits, but they love the socialism of the costs of exploiting the resources. They love the socialism of the miseries their enterprises produce being re-distributed to the larger society.

I want to know, Ziggy, what are union and elected liberal leaders doing to lift McDowell County out of poverty? What have they been doing the past 30 years?

I've read the report from Downstreams.org authored by Teddy and his pals that you base tripe like you stated above on.

There is no way around it, the information is as wrong as you are and until you start basing your views on factual data you will continue to be wrong.

ohio county wrote:In an effort to answer for myself what corporations have to do with the budget kerfluffle in Wisconsin I found this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-lakoff/the-real-issues-a-wiscons_b_828640.html

Didn't we start this thread with this cat?

And so what do you conclude as relates to the question of what corporations have to do with the "kerfluffle" there? Are corporations not among the taxpayers that Governor Walker complains cannot afford the collective bargaining agreements with public employee unions?

Should Walker sacrifice jobs to preserve wages and benefits?

Stephanie wrote:I want to know, Ziggy, what are union and elected liberal leaders doing to lift McDowell County out of poverty? What have they been doing the past 30 years?

What elected "liberal leaders" are you talking about? The WV statehouse is not a bastian of "liberal leaders". By and large the leadership of the UMWA, the WV statehouse and county governments in southern West Virginia have forever been populated with the lapdogs of the coal operators- and remain so today.

That's a cop-out to keep from anwering your question Stephanie.

Stephanie wrote:Should Walker sacrifice jobs to preserve wages and benefits?

Well, it seems that he is prepared to sacrifice (lay off or fire) about 12,000 public employees in a few days. If he can't pay 'em, and if they won't work without being paid- what other choice does he have?

ziggy wrote:

ohio county wrote:In an effort to answer for myself what corporations have to do with the budget kerfluffle in Wisconsin I found this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-lakoff/the-real-issues-a-wiscons_b_828640.html

Didn't we start this thread with this cat?

And so what do you conclude as relates to the question of what corporations have to do with the "kerfluffle" there? Are corporations not among the taxpayers that Governor Walker complains cannot afford the collective bargaining agreements with public employee unions?

Your question is meaningless. Your original assertion was that by denying collective bargaining, the Wisconsin government was empowering xorporations more so then taxpayers. Despite being ask numerous time, you've yet to answer how. You instead try to deflect the comments to your preception that Corporations are evil. Your avoidance of a legitimate question speaks volumns.

How are corporations empowered if Wisconsin state workers are denied collective bargaining rights for all but pay issues?

The answer is they don't care about the people of McDowell County. They care only about their own personal wealth and power and in the case of liberal politicians the way to hold to and increase their wealth and power is through government handouts. Individual and corporate taxpayers fund these handouts that do nothing to address the root causes of economic disaster and poverty. Instead, they perpetuate it. The people in McDowell County are worse off today than they were 30 years ago when the mines shut down because now government dole has become institutionalized now that a generation has wallowed in this misery without hope.

ziggy wrote:

Stephanie wrote:Should Walker sacrifice jobs to preserve wages and benefits?

Well, it seems that he is prepared to sacrifice (lay off or fire) about 12,000 public employees in a few days. If he can't pay 'em, and if they won't work without being paid- what other choice does he have?

He'll have no choice because 14 Democrats, encouraged and emboldened by union fat cats, decided to make the decision for him.

He'll have no choice because 14 Democrats, encouraged and emboldened by union fat cats, decided to make the decision for him.

Or is it because public agency managers negotiated labor contracts that, if we believe Walker, that the government and the taxpayers could not afford?

ziggy wrote:

He'll have no choice because 14 Democrats, encouraged and emboldened by union fat cats, decided to make the decision for him.

Or is it because public agency managers negotiated labor contracts that, if we believe Walker, that the government and the taxpayers could not afford?

Wisconsin is facing a budget deficit of $3,000,000,000.00. When you make stupid comments like that all you do is affirm the fact that you have no credibility.

And I'll save you the trouble of bring up budget cuts. They amount to about 3% of the deficit. They are not the reason for the budget deficit as many of your fellow Marxist are claiming.

And so what do you conclude as relates to the question of what corporations have to do with the "kerfluffle" there? Are corporations not among the taxpayers that Governor Walker complains cannot afford the collective bargaining agreements with public employee unions?

Yes, corporations pay taxes and are, therefore taxpayers. You said that corporations want to strictly control public employee pay rates. That isn't true. The proposal that caused the democrats to flee to Illinois doesn't restrict the public-sector unions from using collective bargaining to negotiate their pay rates. It simply requires them to contribute to their healthcare and pensions at rates generally paid by the rest of society. My conclusion is that corporations have little or nothing to do with the Wisconsin dust-up. Nobody has ever accused me of being obsessed with corporation greed though. Isn't this selective argument exactly what you accused me of doing? I don't expect you to make my case for me. I feel pretty capable of that.

Is there some compelling reason you ignored this question:

You don't think part of the "shellacking" of 2010 was a public repudiation of an administration obsessed with Big Labor's political agendas? I'd gladly vote against corporate lobbyists today if you'd reject the Big Labor agenda including open borders, statism, and bigger government.

Is there some compelling reason you ignored this question: You don't think part of the "shellacking" of 2010 was a public repudiation of an administration obsessed with Big Labor's political agendas?

No "compelling reason" other than that I didn't have an answer at my fingertips. The 2010 elections were about a lot of things. We can presume that they were about "an administration obsessed with Big Labor's political agendas" if you want to put it that way, about the continuing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, about health care, about sunsetting or renewing certain tax rates, about pro-gay and anti-gay agendas- about a plethora of issues. Historically Congressional elections 2 years into a president's first term often go against the sitting President's party. But if you want to think that it is only about "an administration obsessed with Big Labor's political agendas", I doubt that I'll change your mind- nor expend much energy trying to.

My conclusion is that corporations have little or nothing to do with the Wisconsin dust-up.

So if it's not- as Governor Walker asserts- about taxpayers not being able to afford collective bargaining over employee benefits- then what is it about? If, as the governor asserts, it's about what taxpayers can or cannot afford through taxes, why do corporations have "little or nothing to do with it" while other taxpayers apparently have a lot to do with it?

Nobody has ever accused me of being obsessed with corporation greed though. Isn't this selective argument exactly what you accused me of doing? I don't expect you to make my case for me. I feel pretty capable of that.

Yes, you are quite capable. But to what "selective argument" do you refer?

As to "corporate greed"- what is wrong with it? It is human greed that drives virtually all economic systems. The trick is to harness that greed such as to provide the best economics and social benefits to the most people. Ad I think the USA did a pretty good job of that during the last half of the 20th century.

But you assert that corprations are somehow immune to human greed, and that they are neither good not evil.

How about this: About 1960 or so Kaiser Aluminum Co. (KACC) built a 12 room elementary school building in northern Ravenswood, and then sold it to the Jackson County Board of Education for $1.00. Most everyone in Jackson County thought that was a good deed on the part of KACC. And I agree that it was. But if corporations are neither good nor evil as you say- if they are amoral as Sheik Ben says- then how could that have been a good thing for KACC to have done for the Ravenswood community?

Why do you insist on focusing on corporations instead of the real issue, Wisconsin taxpayers cannot afford the deficits that previous legislatures (public agency managers-please, what a joke) promised to public employees?

This is just the beginning as it is not only Wisconsin in every state in the union. I believe someone ask you previously but I didn't see an answer. How much should taxpayers dole out for public employees considering they are already compensated at about 1 1/2 the rate of private employees?

I understand that you have no answers but that won't stop me from asking, particularly when you make stupid comments in your vain attempts to detract from the real issues as you've done on this thread.

ohio county wrote:

And so what do you conclude as relates to the question of what corporations have to do with the "kerfluffle" there? Are corporations not among the taxpayers that Governor Walker complains cannot afford the collective bargaining agreements with public employee unions?

Yes, corporations pay taxes and are, therefore taxpayers. You said that corporations want to strictly control public employee pay rates. That isn't true.

I don't think I have said that, OC. But if you can show us that I have, then please do.