Election Laws revisited

I realize this is in some ways a re-hash of another post I made a few weeks ago.

But the question was never really resolved the first time around.

Plus we seem to have some new blood on the forum now who were not here the first time.

And they seem to be knowledgeable and educated in the Law.

So I will pose the question again.

Who is the final arbiter on which name goes on the ballot?

In particular, can the Fl and Michigan Democrat Committees put Hillary Clinton on the General Election ballot as the Dem nominee for President?

And for that matter can the WV and Kentucky and Arkansas Democrat Committees do so?

I am surprised this question has not been addressed.

I think people just assume sometimes what the law actually says without basing it on fact or legal research.

I suspect (but do not know) that the Dem Committees from each state makes the final decision who goes on the ballot.

Sherman, common sense should tell you that if the Party can legally determine who "uses" their Ballot for casting their "vote" in a Primary Election ....... then the Party can legally determine whose name will appear on THEIR ballot.

The State or County really doesn't give a rat's patootie who's name appears on who's Ballot, ....... but ya better have the Filing Fee or they will tell you to "take a hike".



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Yes Sam I think you are right about the "Party" deciding.

But the question is whether it is the national DNC or the state Democratic Party who decides.

That is the question I am asking.

Can the state Democrat Committee put a name on the ballot different from who the national committee wants?

The national government does not conduct elections. States do.

shermangeneral wrote:Yes Sam I think you are right about the "Party" deciding.

But the question is whether it is the national DNC or the state Democratic Party who decides.

That is the question I am asking.

Can the state Democrat Committee put a name on the ballot different from who the national committee wants?

The national government does not conduct elections. States do.

That is a silly question, Sherm.

There is only one (1) Democrat Party and it is most probably Chartered under the National Party, ..... the DNC, ...... which oversees and controls the State Democrat Party in each State, ....... which in turn oversees and controls the County Democrat Parties in each State.

Now Sherm, if you would "pull out" your personal copy of the Democrat Party Charter ....... and read it, ...... I'm sure you will find the answer to your question.

If the DNC can legally prevent Florida from "seating" their Delegates at the National Convention because they refused to obey a mandate issued by the DNC, ...... then that should tell you "who's running the frigging dog n' pony show".

cheers

Well again Sam you are just shooting from the hip as usual.

You clearly don't know.

You are just assuming.

The DNC can in fact run the national convention dog and pony show as you say.

but that does not mean they tell the state election officials whose name goes on the ballot.

I dont claim to know either, btw.

Maybe they do and maybe they don't.

I suspect they don't.

(and it might be different from state to state).

SamCogar wrote:There is only one (1) Democrat Party and it is most probably Chartered under the National Party, ..... the DNC, ...... which oversees and controls the State Democrat Party in each State, ....... which in turn oversees and controls the County Democrat Parties in each State.

Now Sherm, if you would "pull out" your personal copy of the Democrat Party Charter ....... and read it, ...... I'm sure you will find the answer to your question.

What charter? Polirical parties do not exist by virtue of any Charter or any other legal document. Political parties exist as defined in state law(s). Neither the DNC nor the RNC is a political party.

Actually the Democrat Party does not even go by that name in every state.

For example, in Minnesota it is called the Minnesota Democratic Farmer/Labor Party.

So the National Party (insofar as there is a National Democrat Party) seems to be an affiliation or amalgamation of the various state parties.

Therefore it seems doubtful that the State Parties are bound by any legal requirement or contract to recognize the nominee of the National Convention.

Especially those states who are not even recognized by the national DNC and not invited to the big doins in Denver.

Speaking of election laws Frank, I was under the impression that the Mountain Party had candidates for office.

I had some dude at the Power game last night wanting me to sign a petititon for independent parties to put candidates on ballots without getting mininum votes in previous elections. He was with some a young lady trying to collect signatures.

Aaron wrote:Speaking of election laws Frank, I was under the impression that the Mountain Party had candidates for office.

That is correct. The Mountain party currently has candidates for local and statewide offices, and by August will have most likely candidates for President & Vice-President, as well.

I had some dude at the Power game last night wanting me to sign a petititon for independent parties to put candidates on ballots without getting mininum votes in previous elections. He was with some a young lady trying to collect signatures.

That too is correct. Neither the Mountain Party nor the Democratic nor Republican Party can run independent candidates on their ballot lines. Political parties can only run candidates who are members of that party- or, in the case of Presidential candidates, candidates who are "affiliated with" that party.

A candidate running an independent campaign, however, needs to get petition signatures to get on the ballot. For example, the Libertarian Party is not a ballot qualified party in West Virginia- because it did not poll at least one percent for its gubernatorial candidate in the 2004 general election. And so persons wishing to run on the Libertarian Party ticket must get petition signatures.

Ralkp Nader is an independent candidate for President- not affiliated with any political party. He is running petition signature drives in states around the country to get on the ballot as an independent.

Sherm,

I think Hillary Clinton could gain ballot access in all 50 states, although she has obviously lost her bid for the Democratic nomination. How she would go about do so would be like this:

First, she would have to disaffiliate from the Democratic Party.

Second, she would need to take whatever steps are required by law for any other independent or minor party to get on the ballot in each and every one of those fifty states. Now that she could do, and if she's willing to loan her campain a couple dozen more million $$ she may actually be successful in gaining ballot access in all 50 states. She'd lose the general election, just as she has lost the primary, but she could try that.

Well Steph I know she could do that. Anyone can do that.

But my question is whether she can be the Democrat candidate.

I am getting frustrated. I am asking as plain as I know how.

Zig can you help me out here?

I think you know what I am talking about.

Can you explain it better?

shermangeneral wrote:Well Steph I know she could do that. Anyone can do that.

But my question is whether she can be the Democrat candidate.

I am getting frustrated. I am asking as plain as I know how.

Zig can you help me out here?

I think you know what I am talking about.

Can you explain it better?

Well I tried when we discussed it earlier, Sherm. But West Virginia law is seemingly silent on the specific question you ask.

There seems to be some unspecific tradition of putting whomever "wins" at the national convention on the party's ballot line for President. But that is not in the law. Nor does the law say that either State Party Chairman or State Party Executive Committee can tell election officials whose name to put on the ballot.

I have studied West Virginia election law for almost 20 years. But I am unable to find what specifc authority the Secretray of State and County Clerks in West Virginia use to determine whose name to put on the Democratic and Republican ballot for President.

Political parties are required to declare the names of their presidential electors by August 1st, I think it is. But electors' names are not shown on the general election ballot.

And state election law is rather specifc about how delegates to national conventions are to be chosen- with some limited leaway for parties to alter that delegate selection process, but only within certain bounds- and about how the delegates selected are pledged and bound to vote on a first ballot national convention vote.

But the specific procedures about what is required to happen in determining whose name to place on the presidential ballot after a national nominating convention is held are nebulous.

Sherm,

Is your question just an "intellectual curiosity" sort of thing? Think about it, what good would it be if a few, or even a half dozen states opted to put Clinton on the ballot instead of Obama. She'd lose under that scenario too. It's over for her.

In addition, if she continues on the path of hers, it may be over for her with the DNC. There is only so much they are going to take. She is yesterday's darling. They've moved on. That is crystal clear to nearly everyone but the Clintons and their most ardent supporters. If she continues to divide the party, the party bosses may decide to make her life as a party member rather uncomfortable once this election is over.

If Hillary Clinton wants to see a Clinton woman in the White House one day, she should put the idea in Chelsea's head...and then get as far away from her as possible. By the time this election cycle is over and at the rate she's going, her name will be mud in the democratic party.

Well that depends.

In many parts of the country the Clintons are held in much higher stead than the DNC.

Many feel (with some justification) that the process has been skewed against Hillary.

Both by the DNC and the so-called mainstream media.

And if she can ncarry 2 or three states the election will be thrown into the House of Reps where anything can happen.

(besides, Nostradomas predicted the whole election will be thrown out and have to be done over...)

Yeah, like maybe they'll elect John Edwards, right Sherm.

shermangeneral wrote:Well again Sam you are just shooting from the hip as usual.

You clearly don't know.

You are just assuming.

The DNC can in fact run the national convention dog and pony show as you say.

but that does not mean they tell the state election officials whose name goes on the ballot.

I dont claim to know either, btw.

Maybe they do and maybe they don't.

I suspect they don't.

(and it might be different from state to state).

Well Shermmy, you click on this url

http://law.justia.com/westvirginia/codes/03/03.html

which is West Virginia Code ..... CHAPTER 3. — ELECTIONS

And Section 3-1-1. states, to wit:

§3-1-1. Short title; purpose.
This chapter shall constitute and may be cited as the "West Virginia Election Code" and contemplates and comprehends a code of laws for the establishment, administration and regulation of elections and election procedures in the state of West Virginia.

And the remainder is said code of Laws, etc.

So Shermmy baby, you find me therein "the WV Code" that stipulate that the State or a sub division of the State (County) has any control over the content of a Political Party's Primary Election Ballot, .... specifically related to the inclusion/exclusion of Candidate names.

Now if you can not find any such Code included within CHAPTER 3. — ELECTIONS, .... then there is no such Statute ....... and the State or a sub division of the State (County) has no such control of said Ballots.

cheers

ziggy wrote:

SamCogar wrote:There is only one (1) Democrat Party and it is most probably Chartered under the National Party, ..... the DNC, ...... which oversees and controls the State Democrat Party in each State, ....... which in turn oversees and controls the County Democrat Parties in each State.

Now Sherm, if you would "pull out" your personal copy of the Democrat Party Charter ....... and read it, ...... I'm sure you will find the answer to your question.

What charter? Polirical parties do not exist by virtue of any Charter or any other legal document. Political parties exist as defined in state law(s). Neither the DNC nor the RNC is a political party. No shidt

YADA, ..... YADA, ..... YADA ....

There ya went again Zigster, ...... putting your mouth into motion before you could find your brain to put into gear.

Ya better check this Web site out, Zig, .... to wit:

http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/01/dnc_charter_and.php

And Zigster, if you check I believe you will find that State Law mandates they have such a Charter and thus without said they can't exist, .... aka: recognized by the State and thus permitted to operate/function therein.

SamCogar wrote:So Shermmy baby, you find me therein "the WV Code" that stipulate that the State or a sub division of the State (County) has any control over the content of a Political Party's Primary Election Ballot, .... specifically related to the inclusion/exclusion of Candidate names.

Now if you can not find any such Code included within CHAPTER 3. — ELECTIONS, .... then there is no such Statute ....... and the State or a sub division of the State (County) has no such control of said Ballots.

cheers

Sam, read your own link. The WV Code at §3-5 has very specific criteria, specified in law and not by the political parties, about who may run for what, with which public official they must file as a candidate, and when they must file, and the precise form they use to file for public office, and that it is the office of the Secretray of State, and not a state or local political party committee that designs said filing form. A political party may not excersice veto of any legally filed candidate on its primary elecvtion ballot. Even the order of appearance of names on the ballot is via a procedure spelled out in law. About all the authority political party executive committees have re: primary elections is to: (1) Offer suggestions to the County Clerk for poll workers, and (2) appoint to vacancies in filing. Everything else as relates to Primary Elections is spelled out in the state code at CHAPTER 3, ARTICLE 5. — PRIMARY ELECTIONS AND NOMINATING PROCEDURES.

And neither a state nor local political party committee can substitute their whims for a any of it.

ziggy wrote:

shermangeneral wrote:Well Steph I know she could do that. Anyone can do that.

But my question is whether she can be the Democrat candidate.

I am getting frustrated. I am asking as plain as I know how.

Zig can you help me out here?

I think you know what I am talking about.

Can you explain it better?

Well I tried when we discussed it earlier, Sherm. But West Virginia law is seemingly silent on the specific question you ask.

There seems to be some unspecific tradition of putting whomever "wins" at the national convention on the party's ballot line for President. But that is not in the law. Nor does the law say that either State Party Chairman or State Party Executive Committee can tell election officials whose name to put on the ballot.

I have studied West Virginia election law for almost 20 years. But I am unable to find what specifc authority the Secretray of State and County Clerks in West Virginia use to determine whose name to put on the Democratic and Republican ballot for President.

Well "DUH", ..... if it is not stipulated in Section 3 of the WV Code ..... then the SOS and/or the CCs ...... are not authorized to determine any such thing.

SamCogar wrote:

ziggy wrote:

SamCogar wrote:There is only one (1) Democrat Party and it is most probably Chartered under the National Party, ..... the DNC, ...... which oversees and controls the State Democrat Party in each State, ....... which in turn oversees and controls the County Democrat Parties in each State.

Now Sherm, if you would "pull out" your personal copy of the Democrat Party Charter ....... and read it, ...... I'm sure you will find the answer to your question.

What charter? Polirical parties do not exist by virtue of any Charter or any other legal document. Political parties exist as defined in state law(s). Neither the DNC nor the RNC is a political party. No shidt

YADA, ..... YADA, ..... YADA ....

There ya went again Zigster, ...... putting your mouth into motion before you could find your brain to put into gear.

Ya better check this Web site out, Zig, .... to wit:

http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/01/dnc_charter_and.php

That "charter" is simply what they choose to call their by-laws, Sam. It is not issued by any government agency. It is simply some organization's by-laws. So it is not a Charter in any real sense of the word.

The Libertarian Party, too, has some kind of by-laws which might be called a "Charter" or some such. And the Green Party of the U.S.A., does too. But their West Virginia affiliates have no status as a political party with access of their candidates to the public ballot unless those state affiliates comply with the laws of West Virginia- and including qualifying for public ballot access as per the various Sections of Chapter 3 of West Virginia Code. Political parties have no power as relates to access to the public ballot- in either primary or general elections- other than that allowed and spelled out in West Virginia law.

West Virginia law determines what the Democratic Party in West Virginia is- independently from any Democratic National Committee "Charter".

And Zigster, if you check I believe you will find that State Law mandates they have such a Charter and thus without said they can't exist, .... aka: recognized by the State and thus permitted to operate/function therein.

Sam, not only is such a Charter not mandated, political parties can and often do function in West Virginia without any affiliation whatsoever with any national organization.

SamCogar wrote:Well "DUH", ..... if it is not stipulated in Section 3 of the WV Code ..... then the SOS and/or the CCs ...... are not authorized to determine any such thing.

Then what's to keep some Republican County Clerk from putting the name of Joe Biden for President on that county's Democratic ballot line- even though the DNC's nominee be Clinton or Obama?

SamCogar wrote:

ziggy wrote:Well I tried when we discussed it earlier, Sherm. But West Virginia law is seemingly silent on the specific question you ask.

There seems to be some unspecific tradition of putting whomever "wins" at the national convention on the party's ballot line for President. But that is not in the law. Nor does the law say that either State Party Chairman or State Party Executive Committee can tell election officials whose name to put on the ballot.

I have studied West Virginia election law for almost 20 years. But I am unable to find what specifc authority the Secretray of State and County Clerks in West Virginia use to determine whose name to put on the Democratic and Republican ballot for President.

Well "DUH", ..... if it is not stipulated in Section 3 of the WV Code ..... then the SOS and/or the CCs ...... are not authorized to determine any such thing.

Then who is- and more importantly- by what authority?

ziggy wrote:

SamCogar wrote:So Shermmy baby, you find me therein "the WV Code" that stipulate that the State or a sub division of the State (County) has any control over the content of a Political Party's Primary Election Ballot, .... specifically related to the inclusion/exclusion of Candidate names.

Now if you can not find any such Code included within CHAPTER 3. — ELECTIONS, .... then there is no such Statute ....... and the State or a sub division of the State (County) has no such control of said Ballots.

cheers

Sam, read your own link. The WV Code at §3-5 has very specific criteria, specified in law and not by the political parties, about who may run for what, with which public official they must file as a candidate, and when they must file, and the precise form they use to file for public office, and that it is the office of the Secretray of State, and not a state or local political party committee that designs said filing form. A political party may not excersice veto of any legally filed candidate on its primary elecvtion ballot. Even the order of appearance of names on the ballot is via a procedure spelled out in law. About all the authority political party executive committees have re: primary elections is to: (1) Offer suggestions to the County Clerk for poll workers, and (2) appoint to vacancies in filing. Everything else as relates to Primary Elections is spelled out in the state code at CHAPTER 3, ARTICLE 5. — PRIMARY ELECTIONS AND NOMINATING PROCEDURES.

And neither a state nor local political party committee can substitute their whims for a any of it.

Zig, I don't know what the hell you think you posted there but it did not address the context of the quote you included, .......

If you would read the WV Code at §3-5, you would see that it certainly does address it.