Is the VSC Commission a bunch of Greenies?

Now I'm the blind one because I don't see any water puddles.

Aaron wrote:[

Aaron, I only see about 1/8 of the original photo that was previously posted.

If you have it on your PC, .... do a "Save As" and resize it for "Medium Web View" and then repost it.

I don't have it on my computer Sam.[/quote]

Aaron, I meant "Save Copy", ...... but anyway I did as Steph did, ... saved web copy ....... and then uploaded it ... as you see in the above.

That is the same picture Frank posted last year, is it not?

Aaron wrote:Now I'm the blind one because I don't see any water puddles.

On the right side of the picture there is water puddles all over the blacktop.

Aaron, that is a mist/fog rising after a rainstorm, ........ not dust from a coal operation settling all over everthing.

Look at the center right of the picture at those "white spots" .... which are "sunlight reflecting off of something shiny" ...... which it couldn't do if there was dust covering the surface of those objects.

And yes, the Sun is shining from that direction, ..... look at the 2 evergreen trees to the left of the school sign, ..... and tell me what's causing their shadow on the blacktop.

And from the length of their shadow ...... I would guess the picture was taken about .... 10 AM or 2 PM depending whether the right side of picture is East or West orientated.

But I know damn well it is not North or South orientated ..... because the Sun doesn't rise or set in either.

Aaron, "YES", that is/was the picture of the MFE that Ziggy posted.

And if we look at the aerial view of the MFE that you posted .... then the photographer was standing on the right side in your picture, right.

And that coal silo would be directly to the right of the photographer that took Zig's picture, ..... right.

And that "rutty road" in the foreground of Zig''s photo must a back entrance driveway to the school.

SamCogar wrote:

Aaron wrote:



As you can see from the picture below, if there were MTR near Marsh Fork Elementary that caused the dust, it would be visable but I'm just not seeing it. The picture above is clearly different then the one below.

No the Va Corp. Commission is not a bunch of "greenies".

They just do not want the rate payers in Va. to help pay the cost of construction.

They would prefer for WV rate payers to pay for it.

But they want the electricity generated from the plant, right Sherm.

Here is the picture I posted last year- complete with the caption, just as I told you last week. I was incorrect only in that it does not show the time of day the photograph was taken.

I am familiar with the scene. The photo was taken from the roadside of the State Rt., in front of the school house. The coal tipple is not shown. But it would be to the left just off the left side of the photograph. The camera is pointed approximately toward the north-northwest. The Coal River is on the back side of the school house- between the schoolhouse and the hill you see behind the schoolhouse. The Coal River at that point runs almost due north- which is from left to right, looking at the photograph. The sun is obviously to the left, not in the picture- but opposite the shadows cast by the trees on the left edge of the picture.

http://www.crmw.net/photo_detail.php?id=61

Sam says what we see over that schoolhouse is water vapor from a recent rain. Aaron says it is dust from spinning car tires in the dusty dirt- just after a rain, if we take Sam's word for it. Could both Sam and Aaron be right?

Or could it be just what the photographer says it is- dust that appeared just after and as a result of a large blast at a nearby strip mine- unrelated to atmospheric conditions- and that Sam and Aaron are in denial about the effects of strip mining on nearby communities?

Aaron said it could have been dust from spinning tires. It could have been a lot of things, including a blast from a strip mine more then a mile away. But that's not what you said last year when you posted the picture with no caption Frank. Back then, the debate was about the fine folks that got arrested demanding a meeting to discuss the coal processing plant located just behind the school and the dust was from that plant.

Regardless of what it's from, coal is a way of life in Boone County and it's going to create some dust. Just out of curiousity, do you know if the amount of dust in that area exceeds the DEP's PEL for nusiance dust? I mean, for all you know, the dust is well below the numbers for both method 9 and method 21 testing and your crying about something that is well within the legal limits of the law, right Frank. Or do you have proof that the dust is in violation?

No. The picture was taken several weeks after the folks were arrested at the governor's office. The picture is what it says it is, and it is just as I remembered and described here last week, when the CRMW web site was down.

I have not contended that the dust exceeds legal limits. But we do contend that school students should not have to endure such conditions. If you believe they should, that's your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

What I believe is that coal mining is THE lifeblood of Boone county and that dust is one of the by products of mining. DEP sets a limit on exposure and can easily set up monitoring at that school. I would imagine that has been done, probably on more then one occasion. But if not, it should be. If the dust is in excess of acceptable DEP exposure limits, then it should be controlled. If it's not and the company is within the guidelines of state law and agency limits, you have nothing to complain about.

As for the kids enduring those conditions, there was an offer made to put dust collection on the school. It was turned down. What was requested was a new school for the elementary students THROUGH 12th grade. This request was made AFTER Marsh Fork High School was shut down.

Rock Creek resident and Coal River Mountain Watch member Hillary Hosta was incensed that for a second time, residents were having to voice concerns about the silo.

“There shouldn’t be a second time,” she said. “We’re hearing the dangers, for a second time, about putting a silo behind a school. I am horribly insulted. This is a terrible thing to even think about — putting a second silo behind the school.’

“We should be talking about putting a new, safe school in this community for these children.”

Coal River Mountain Watch is calling for construction of a new school in the Marsh Fork area, according to the release. Noting long bus rides after Marsh Fork High School closed, the group is asking for a new facility to accommodate grades K-12.

Look for the motive

That certainly sounds like blackmail to me, what about you Frank!!!

Or maybe you'd call it "DUST MAIL"!!!!!!!!!!

BLACK dust mail.

DEP sets a limit on exposure and can easily set up monitoring at that school. I would imagine that has been done, probably on more then one occasion. But if not, it should be. If the dust is in excess of acceptable DEP exposure limits, then it should be controlled. If it's not and the company is within the guidelines of state law and agency limits, you have nothing to complain about.

Scientists sometimes learn levels long though safe for some substances in fact are dangerous. The best example I can think of is lead. Just because the DEP says X amount of coal dust is acceptable, doesn't necessarily mean it is safe.

These families have a legitimate gripe. There shouldn't be another silo so close to the school. If the coal company wants another silo there, they should pay for a new school.

Which misery of coal are we griping about here, the MTR or the prep plant?

And should that new school be K-12 Stephanie?

I'm griping about the contaminants young children are exposed to each and every day at Marsh Fork Elementary School.

It seems to me the new school should meet the needs of the community. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to slap a bandaid on the problems facing that community.

Perhaps you should take a drive down the coal highway and not just accept Frank's propaganda hook, line and sinker.

And you didn't answer the question. Should the school be K-5 as other WV elementary schools are or should Massey be forced to build a new school housing K-12 as CRMW wants?

SamCogar wrote:

ziggy wrote:Why would I need to "CYA"? Some of us been suing the corrupt authorities who have "the ultimate responsibility and legal authority to regulate and control mining operations in West Virginia" for years- the federal and state surface mining regulatory agencies.

Ziggy, I have been reading the Charleston newspapers for the past 25 years .... and an active Member of these Forums (inclusive) for nigh onto 10 years, ..... and I do not remember ever reading a reference to anyone of said group "SUING CORRUPT AUTHORITIES or the AGENCIES there of for ANYTHING.

So Zig, iffen you and yours have "been suing them for years", .... you shouldn't have a problem citing a few REFERENCES to said Law suites, ..... RIGHT..

Sam, if you've been doin' all that readin', then you could not have missed this:

http://www.sundaygazettemail.com/News/Mining+the+Mountains/200706140003

Or this:

http://wvgazette.com/News/Mining+the+Mountains/200710120026

Or you could Google Bragg vs. Robertson.

Or you could Google OVEC v. Corps of Engineers.

Or you could Google West Virginia Highlands Conservancy v. Norton.

Those are just a couple of the biggie West Virginia lawsuits by citizens and citizen groups against government employees and agencies this decade. There have been many other similar lawsuits- some big, some small, some successful, and some not successful over the past forty or so years.

Sam, citizens and citizen groups have been suing government officials and regulatory agencies for decades. But none of the groups that I work with have ever sued a coal company- at least not in the past 20 years or so, if ever.

So again, as usual Sam, you just do not know what you are talking about.

Aaron wrote:Perhaps you should take a drive down the coal highway and not just accept Frank's propaganda hook, line and sinker.

And you didn't answer the question. Should the school be K-5 as other WV elementary schools are or should Massey be forced to build a new school housing K-12 as CRMW wants?

Aaron,

I have traveled a large part of WV. It's funny the places I haven't found my way to.....like nearby Huntington. Yet I have traveled through Fayette, Clay, Greenbrier, Upshur, Braxton, Webster, Nicholas, Ohio, Jackson, Kanawha, and who knows how many other counties in this state. A whole bunch, I assure you. As recently as Friday I was in Fayette County touring the Whipple Company Store with other homeschoolers.

Coal mining is not a part of my family's history. On my mom's side I had ancestors who worked in the whaling, fishing, textile, and jewelry industry. There are no coal mines in southern New England, to my knowledge anyway. Mining was a way of life for much of my husband's family. His father worked in the mines as a young man. His paternal grandfather worked in the mines until crippled in a mining accident. His uncle retired from mining within the past 5 years. Coal mining goes back generations in his family and some of his cousins are miners today.

I have yet to have any of them tell me they favor strip mining, or MTR. Each year they have a family reunion. The past couple of years it's been held in some park out in Upshur County. I hope to go. I'll make sure I ask those I haven't had conversations about mining with just how they feel about these practices.

I'm not sure how large a school Massey should be required to fund. It seems to me they should fund a new school that meets the requirements of the community. They have created all sorts of problems and have made quite clear their intentions to continue their efforts to build another silo and increase traffic and sludge and dust right by that school.

All of those students who attended that school in years past have had to suffer with poor air quality and the dangers associated with the damn and the sludge and everything else associated with coal operations in the immediate vicinity. The least the coal company could do is provide them with a safe, state of the art school to make up for a portion of the damage suffered by the youngsters of that area, including those who have already endured 6 years in the unhealthy environment at Marsh Fork Elementary.

ziggy wrote:Here is the picture I posted last year- complete with the caption, just as I told you last week. I was incorrect only in that it does not show the time of day the photograph was taken.

I am familiar with the scene. The photo was taken from the roadside of the State Rt., in front of the school house. The coal tipple is not shown. But it would be to the left just off the left side of the photograph. The camera is pointed approximately toward the north-northwest. The Coal River is on the back side of the school house- between the schoolhouse and the hill you see behind the schoolhouse. The Coal River at that point runs almost due north- which is from left to right, looking at the photograph. The sun is obviously to the left, not in the picture- but opposite the shadows cast by the trees on the left edge of the picture.

http://www.crmw.net/photo_detail.php?id=61

OH FOR GODS SAKE ........ Ziggy, .......... GIVE IT UP.

You are only adding insult to you un-creditability ...... or your duffus ignorance.

The coal tipple ... it would be to the left just off the left side of the photograph.

The sun is obviously to the left, not in the picture- but opposite the shadows cast by the trees on the left edge of the picture.

The camera is pointed ...toward the north-northwest.

The Coal River is ... between the schoolhouse and the hill

The Coal River ... runs almost due north- which is from left to right,

.

Stephanie wrote:

Aaron wrote:Perhaps you should take a drive down the coal highway and not just accept Frank's propaganda hook, line and sinker.

And you didn't answer the question. Should the school be K-5 as other WV elementary schools are or should Massey be forced to build a new school housing K-12 as CRMW wants?

Aaron,

I have traveled a large part of WV. It's funny the places I haven't found my way to.....like nearby Huntington. Yet I have traveled through Fayette, Clay, Greenbrier, Upshur, Braxton, Webster, Nicholas, Ohio, Jackson, Kanawha, and who knows how many other counties in this state. A whole bunch, I assure you. As recently as Friday I was in Fayette County touring the Whipple Company Store with other homeschoolers.

Coal mining is not a part of my family's history. On my mom's side I had ancestors who worked in the whaling, fishing, textile, and jewelry industry. There are no coal mines in southern New England, to my knowledge anyway. Mining was a way of life for much of my husband's family. His father worked in the mines as a young man. His paternal grandfather worked in the mines until crippled in a mining accident. His uncle retired from mining within the past 5 years. Coal mining goes back generations in his family and some of his cousins are miners today.

I have yet to have any of them tell me they favor strip mining, or MTR. Each year they have a family reunion. The past couple of years it's been held in some park out in Upshur County. I hope to go. I'll make sure I ask those I haven't had conversations about mining with just how they feel about these practices.

I'm not sure how large a school Massey should be required to fund. It seems to me they should fund a new school that meets the requirements of the community. They have created all sorts of problems and have made quite clear their intentions to continue their efforts to build another silo and increase traffic and sludge and dust right by that school.

All of those students who attended that school in years past have had to suffer with poor air quality and the dangers associated with the damn and the sludge and everything else associated with coal operations in the immediate vicinity. The least the coal company could do is provide them with a safe, state of the art school to make up for a portion of the damage suffered by the youngsters of that area, including those who have already endured 6 years in the unhealthy environment at Marsh Fork Elementary.

What Massey, along with other coal companies, is create high paying jobs that have sustained the communities. Take coal mining out of that area and unemployment will hit 25 to 30%, if not higher. If it's not that high, it will be because the population will dwindle to nothing. Once again, I would suggest you travel down there.

And when you do, keep in mind that for many of the residents have an agenda other then Franks of stopping mining. This is about getting their high school back for many residents. Liberty High School was constructed in 1976 as a consolidation of Trapp High School, Clear Fork High School and Marsh Fork High School. Clear Fork fought until 1993. Marsh Fork didn't succomb until 2003. Both are gone and residents still want their schools back.

Misty after a rain



Misty in the morning

Sam, why is that "misty after a rain" mist brown?

Who else finds Aaron's suggestion that a car wheel spun up all that dust while at the same time Sam insists it's "after a rain" mist hilarious? A car spins up all that dust from a mudhole?

If you guys are gonna tag team me, you need to get your signals straight.

Do you have proof that the dust is in excess of DEP's method 9 or method 21 testing Frank?

Do you even know what method 9 or method 21 testing is Frank?

Don't you think it's kind of sad that you guys claim that all you want if for the school children to "not to have to endure these conditions" but in reality, you'er using this situation to achieve your agendas, which for you is to completely shut down mining and for others it is for Massey to build them a new high school so they can go watch Friday night football games in Naoma instead of Glen Daniel?

ziggy wrote:Sam, why is that "misty after a rain" mist brown?

Who else finds Aaron's suggestion that a car wheel spun up all that dust while at the same time Sam insists it's "after a rain" mist hilarious? A car spins up all that dust from a mudhole?

If you guys are gonna tag team me, you need to get your signals straight.

Well Zigster, iffen you were ever an ole "country boy" as you claim you were, ...... a living n' growing up along that ....... country road that those coal operators bulldozed the hell out of a tearing your father's fences down, etc., etc. ........ then you would damn well know that no one ever installed "dust lights" on their vehicles so they could see to drive. Now "fog lights", .... YES, ..... but not "dust lights".

And the reason being, ya can't see through a "cloud of dust" like ya can mist or fog because ...... dust blocks the Sunlight or car lights ....... but mist or fog refracts and reflects the Sunlight or car lights. And since I'm sure you have no frigging idea what the word "refract" means, ...... look it up before ya start mouthing.

GEEEZE, Zigster, I don't know what your problem is ......... but even the dumbest of females that ever traveled much on a "dusty road" knows ya can't see shidt when there is lots of dust in the air.

So Zigster, ...... why is it you don't know that?

Here Zig, ...... see what you were claiming you seen for years n' years a growing up



Tell us Ziggy, ....... is that car that is following that pickup a Ford or a Chevy?



.

Stephanie wrote:Ziggy,

I find it impossible to believe environmentalists did not play a major role in this latest outrage.

If the proposed project were to have been located in Virginia, you can bet that the VCC would have approved the rate change. As Sherm said, it is about the money- about who is to pay for the plant. Virginia did not veto building the plant. It only dis-allowed its costs to be paid by Virginia's electricity ratepayers.

As always, follow the money.