Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam

You Sherm.

You made reference to the 10 commandments......you seem to "believe" what the Bible tells you so why would you support a candiate like Barry Obama? You know his record on abortion.

Well Steph I dont think you can find a post where I ever said I support Obama.

And #2 I have never seen any biblical reference to abortion pro or con.

So like I told you before my opposition to abortion as a belated means of birth control is based on my personal sense of values and not any biblical admonition.

However I am not a one issue voter so I may very well vote for a candidate who disagrees with me about abortion.

Psalms 139:13-20 III
You formed my inmost being;
you knit me in my mother's womb.
[14] I praise you, so wonderfully you made me;
wonderful are your works! My very self you knew;
[15] my bones were not hidden from you,
When I was being made in secret,
fashioned as in the depths of the earth.
[16] Your eyes foresaw my actions;
in your book all are written down;
my days were shaped, before one came to be.



Psalms 127:3-5 II
Children too are a gift from the LORD, the fruit of the womb, a reward.

Prov. 6:16-17
There are six things the LORD hates,
yes, seven are an abomination to him;
[17] Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood;


Matthew 19:14
but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them;
for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."


Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of (the) Lord.
He will drink neither wine nor strong drink.
He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother's womb,


Luke 1:41-44
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb,
and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
[42] cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
[43] And how does this happen to me,
that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
[44] For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears,
the infant in my womb leaped for joy.


Psalms 22:9-10
"You relied on the LORD--let him deliver you;
if he loves you, let him rescue you."
[10] Yet you drew me forth from the womb,
made me safe at my mother's breast.


Exodus 4:11
The LORD said to him, "Who gives one man speech
and makes another deaf and dumb?
Or who gives sight to one and makes another blind?
Is it not I, the LORD?


Exodus 21:22
"When men have a fight and hurt a pregnant woman,
so that she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury,
the guilty one shall be fined as much as the woman's husband demands of him,
and he shall pay in the presence of the judges.



Exodus 20:13 "You shall not kill."



Genesis 9:6-7
If anyone sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
For in the image of God has man been made.
[7] Be fertile, then, and multiply; abound on earth and subdue it."


Psalms 119:73
Your hands made me and fashioned me;
give me insight to learn your commands.


Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I dedicated you,
a prophet to the nations I appointed you.


Prov. 24:11-12 (Rescue)
Rescue those who are being dragged to death,
and from those tottering to execution withdraw not.
[12] If you say, "I know not this man!"
does not he who tests hearts perceive it?
He who guards your life knows it,
and he will repay each one according to his deeds.


Job 10:8-12
Your hands have formed me and fashioned me;
will you then turn and destroy me?
[9] Oh, remember that you fashioned me from clay!
Will you then bring me down to dust again?
[10] Did you not pour me out as milk,
and thicken me like cheese?
[11] With skin and flesh you clothed me,
with bones and sinews knit me together.
[12] Grace and favor you granted me,
and your providence has preserved my spirit.


Isaiah 49:1
Hear me, O coastlands, listen, O distant peoples.
The LORD called me from birth,
from my mother's womb he gave me my name.


Who are you voting for in November, Sherm?

Was Hillary's stand on abortion any better? How about John Edwards?

Well I wont be voting for anyone who wants to occupy Iraq for another hundred years.

I don't know how hillary and Edwards compare to Obama on the issue of abortion.

shermangeneral wrote:Well I wont be voting for anyone who wants to occupy Iraq for another hundred years.

I don't know how hillary and Edwards compare to Obama on the issue of abortion.

You ignored the Biblical admonitions against killing the unborn.

Well no I did not ignore them.

I have already told you I do not approve abortion as a belated means of birth control.

I just do not get the same message from the various scriptures you posted as you apparently do.

Hillary Clinton's record on abortion:

Voted liberal line on partial birth & harm to fetus. (Oct 2005)
Voted NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)
Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006) Voted NO on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)
Voted NO on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. (Mar 2003)
Recommended by EMILY's List of pro-choice women. (Apr 2001)
Rated 100% by NARAL, indicating a pro-choice voting record. (Dec 2003)
Sponsored bill for emergency contraception for rape victims. (Sep 2006)
Rated 0% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-choice stance. (Dec 2006)
Provide emergency contraception at military facilities. (Apr 2007)

Barack Obama's record on abortion:

Ok for state to restrict late-term partial birth abortion. (Apr 2008)

We can find common ground between pro-choice and pro-life. (Apr 2008)

Undecided on whether life begins at conception. (Apr 2008)

Rated 100% by NARAL on pro-choice votes in 2005, 2006 & 2007. (Jan 2008)

Voted against banning partial birth abortion. (Oct 2007)

Trust women to make own decisions on partial-birth abortion. (Apr 2007)

Extend presumption of good faith to abortion protesters. (Oct 2006)

Moral accusations from pro-lifers are counterproductive. (Oct 2004)

Pass the Stem Cell Research Bill. (Jun 2004)

Protect a woman's right to choose. (May 2004)

Supports Roe v. Wade. (Jul 1998)

Voted NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)

Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)

Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)

Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)

Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)

Sponsored bill providing contraceptives for low-income women. (May 2006)
Rated 0% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-choice stance. (Dec 2006)


John Edwards on abortion:

Gov't should not decide for women on partial-birth abortion. (Apr 2007)

Ad: compassion, truth, and hope over fear-mongering. (Jul 2004)

Right to abortion is constitutionally protected. (Jan 2004)

Voted NO on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)

Voted NO on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000)

Voted NO on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)
Rated 100% by NARAL, indicating a pro-choice voting record. (Dec 2003)

shermangeneral wrote:Well no I did not ignore them.

I have already told you I do not approve abortion as a belated means of birth control.

I just do not get the same message from the various scriptures you posted as you apparently do.

Then what messages do you get? That was a very impressive list, given by an agnostic, being explained away by someone claiming to believe the Bible. You'll have to forgive me for being a little incredulous. I certainly think it's said whenever someone rejects the Bible, but I have far more respect for that then I do "interpreting away" anything you don't like, no matter how plain.

I'm sitting here wondering that myself, Mike.

Perhaps those passages are about global warming or something.

Howbout the part where it says when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils Adam became a living soul.?

I think sometimes when we feel really strongly about something we feel like maybe it is God talking to us.

I have told you I agree with you on the subject of Abortion.

But I will not claim that I am speaking for God on the issue.

Nor do I believe you guys are speaking for God on the matter.

Ah but you believe in the Bible, and I don't. Your Bible makes it quite clear that you are not to kill and that unborn children are living souls and that it is a very grave sin to spill the blood of innocents so I can't, for the life of me, understand how you can say that Michael or I are "speaking for god".

The only Christian religion I am anything approaching well versed in in Catholicism and Catholics believe the Bible is "the word of God". It has long been my assumption that all Christians share that belief.

Have I been wrong? Do you or don't you believe the Bible is the "word of God"? If not, that would explain my decades long frustration with people who profess Christianity but support allowing doctors to kill unborn children.

Well Steph I think you are posting out of frustration.

I am on your side about abortion.

Why are you so hung up that I don't claim I have received a revelation from God and am speaking for Him?

Also I don't believe I referred to the "Ten Commandments".

I am not even for sure which ones are included in the ten.

But I know Jesus said the first two are the highest and the rest of the Law and Prophets rest on those two.

Besides Steph I thought you told me your opposition to abortion did not come from Biblical admonitions either.

shermangeneral wrote:All these "legalisms" are contrary to Jesus' teachings imo.

He said the highest Commandments were to love God with all your heart, etc. and love your neighbor as yourself.

"On these two Commandments hang all the Law and Prophets".

Not to be caught up in recitations, chants, and other superfluous legalisms.

Well Steph I think you are posting out of frustration.

I am on your side about abortion.

Why are you so hung up that I don't claim I have received a revelation from God and am speaking for Him?

Also I don't believe I referred to the "Ten Commandments".

I am not even for sure which ones are included in the ten.

But I know Jesus said the first two are the highest and the rest of the Law and Prophets rest on those two.

I'm not posting out of frustration. I'm posting because I don't understand how you can support pro-abortion candidates when the Bible you so frequently quote admonishes you not to kill. That is a commandment.

Like so many other Christians, you pick and choose which parts of the scriptures apply to you. You want to vote for pro-abortion candidates like Clinton & Edwards because they promote your socialist agenda. That is more important to you than your Bible and what it contains. I think for people like you, liberalism is your religion.

I'm not a biblical scholar, but I can read and comprehend and I know you can too.

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not kill."

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I dedicated you,

Prov. 6:16-17 There are six things the LORD hates,
yes, seven are an abomination to him;
[17] Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood;

If they are "the word of God", it is crystal clear Christians should be working at least as hard to stop the practice of abortion in this country as you are on trying to tax and spend.

Well I am glad I do not have to pass your and Mike's "test" Stephanie.

Clearly I would not pass.

Ironically, even though I agree with you on abortion you condemn me because my opposition does not stem from divine revelation.

Although you dont believe in divine revelation.

Go figure.

No Sherm, I condemn you because you say you oppose abortion but vote for the very people who prevent abolishing it.

Stephanie, you know that I agree with you about the abhorance of strictly elective abortion.

But how are we going to elect politicians who will outlaw abortion when the Constitution does not permit such an act by a state? What point is there in being single issue voters with the aim of electing anti-abortion politicians unless the Constitution is changed?

As relates to politicians and abortion, it seems to me that the only relevant question today would be: "Would you favor an amendment to the Constitution of the U.S. that allows states to outlaw and criminilize the practise of elective, medically un-necessary abortions?"

Hi Zig,

Where in the US Constitution do you find the word abortion?

(Begin new poster, not Sheikben)

If the only words we could use to encompass the individual protections from government intrusions into the lives of the people embeded in the Bill of Rights and elsewhere in the Constitution were the actual words used there, it would render the Bill of Rights meaningless.

For example, just because the word "automobile" does not appear in the Constitution does not mean that the constitutional provisions about property, about being secure in our papers, about unreasonable searches and seizures etc. do not apply to matters relating to automobiles.

I disagree the Constitution prohibits the state governments from banning abortion. I know for a fact the Constitution does not mandate taxpayers fund them. Sherm regularly supports candidates that vote to do that very thing.

I don't agree abortion is ever "medically necessary" in the last trimester. Those babies can be delivered, either vaginally or by c-section and given a chance at life rather than having their brains sucked out or being chemically burned alive.

The federal government could certainly make it a felony to cross state lines for an abortion, just as crossing state lines during the commission of other crimes is a federal offense.

I disagree the Constitution prohibits the state governments from banning abortion.

But the Courts have ruled otherwise. And it is the Constitution that recognizes the Courts as the authority to decide matters relating to conflicts involving the law and the Constitution.

I can't help but wonder why it is that many anti-abortion activists want no part of amending the Constitution to allow states to prohibit abortions.

Well I'm in favor of whatever ends the practice here. However, unless the issue of crossing state lines to receive an abortion is addressed, you really will not have solved much of anything.

That is why I favor appointing conservative judges who won't deny the government the authority to ban the practice and make it a federal offense to cross state lines.

It is a crime to murder a human being in this country regardless of which state you're in, or if you're on the water or in the air. It doesn't matter if you're a citizen or not. The US will seek justice for murder victims killed on foreign soil, or international waters, or airspace. Yet for some reason a fully developed human being who has had the misfortune of not having drawn breath has no protections at all.

I blame liberals and the Democratic Party in particular for that.

SheikBen wrote:

Hi Zig,

Where in the US Constitution do you find the word abortion?

If the only words we could use to encompass the individual protections from government intrusions into the lives of the people embeded in the Bill of Rights and elsewhere in the Constitution were the actual words used there, it would render the Bill of Rights meaningless.

For example, just because the word "automobile" does not appear in the Constitution does not mean that the constitutional provisions about property, about being secure in our papers, about unreasonable searches and seizures etc. do not apply to matters relating to automobiles.

This showed up as mine but it is not.

I can't kill a prostitute in an automobile. While it is true that the lack of the words prostitute and automobile do not therefore mean that prostitutes and privacy are not protected, neither can it then be said that the constitution specifically ALLOWS the killing of prostitutes in automobiles.

All of the "rights" in the bill of rights are meaningless if one does not have the right to life in the first place. Every time a fetus is killed, whether it is because she is female or because she is inconvenient, all other rights, liberties, and happiness are forever denied her.

shermangeneral wrote:Well I am glad I do not have to pass your and Mike's "test" Stephanie.

Clearly I would not pass.

Ironically, even though I agree with you on abortion you condemn me because my opposition does not stem from divine revelation.

Although you dont believe in divine revelation.

Go figure.

What exactly is my test, Sherm? That someone who claims the Bible as an authority actually be required to believe the Bible? Perish the thought!

Let me put to you this way, Sherm. There are parts of the Bible that are particularly hard for me to accept, but I accept them. I do not afford myself the luxury to "explain away" whatever I find not to be comforting. Jesus said that whoever denies Him before men He will deny before the Father. This is not something that I would put into the Scriptures, but it's not about my preferences.

Give me an honest atheist or an agnostic who outrightly does not care what the Bible says anymore than what any other work says. But whenever anyone decides that the Bible is authoritative AS LONG AS THEY LIKE WHAT IT SAYS, I would rather they declare themselves god and be done with it.