Re: Is the economy this bad?

by Aaron Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:58 pm

shermangeneral wrote:Steph like John Edwards said there are two Americas and Aaron knows precious little about the other America.

He obviously looks with contempt and disdain on his less fortunate brethren.

I gurantee you I know more about the other America then you do Sherm.

That's not hard as you know very little if any at all.

by Aaron Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:00 pm

Stephanie wrote:You haven't got a freaking clue what you're talking about, Aaron. Not a freaking clue.

We'll have to agree to disagree Stephanie.

by **Stephanie** Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:37 pm

SamCogar wrote:
Stephanie wrote:You haven't got a freaking clue what you're talking about, Aaron. Not a freaking clue.

You're talking about people living at home with their parents or sponging off a schmuck girlfriend working to pay for those extras. They aren't getting food stamps or heating assistance. Not everybody working for unlivable wages has somebody else taking care of them.

The people actually trying to support themselves on those wages can't purchase cell phones and trendy clothes. They're going to work and trying to make ends meet.

And too think that the School System spent close to $100,000 to try to educate them.

What a waste of money.

They should have just turned them out at the end of their 6th or 8th Grade then they could of hung out on the street corner until they were old enough to get a job "shoving burgers n' fries" ..... and that would save the taxpayers the expense of 4 or 6 years of babysitting them in the schools.

A savings of $32,000 to $50,000 per.

.

You know I'm opposed to compulsory education laws, Sam. That doesn't mean I think that if we're going to fleece taxpayers to fund the exisiting public schools that all children shouldn't be eligible to attend them.

One change they should make is requiring attendance in school for a driver's license. Another is the restriction on working hours. I agree a teenager who doesn't want to be in school is frequently a disruption and distraction but you can't just say don't force them to receive any education any more but you can't work. That's bull. Let them go to work and see how limited their opportunities are at 14 or 15 and how demeaning the work is and perhaps when the next year rolls around they'll be ready and willing to do whatever it takes to further their education.

by TerryRC Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:10 am

And a few food items that use corn or cornmeal that are not on that list are:

Using the corn varieties grown for livestock, Sam?

That was my point, the farmers growing corn for EtOH were growing corn for livestock.

The price of beef and milk went up some and the beef producers turned to other sileage, like soybeans.

So, if you get rid of mandatory EtOH production, what are those field corn producers do with their corn?

Field corn isn't marketable for most foods for human consumption. The beef and milk producers don't need it...

Get it now?

You are going to have to teach those farmers to grow and sell a different variety of corn (which may then glut the corn-for-people market) or produce something else.

by **Stephanie** Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:11 am

Did the livestock stop eating corn?

by SamCogar Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:02 am

TerryRC wrote:And a few food items that use corn or cornmeal that are not on that list are:

Using the corn varieties grown for livestock, Sam?

That was my point, the farmers growing corn for EtOH were growing corn for livestock.

The price of beef and milk went up some and the beef producers turned to other sileage, like soybeans.

So, if you get rid of mandatory EtOH production, what are those field corn producers do with their corn?

Field corn isn't marketable for most foods for human consumption. The beef and milk producers don't need it...

Get it now?

You are going to have to teach those farmers to grow and sell a different variety of corn (which may then glut the corn-for-people market) or produce something else.

Dictionary: field corn (maize) n. Any of several varieties of corn used primarily as feed for livestock.

WordNet: field corn (maize) - The noun has one meaning:

Meaning #1: corn grown primarily for animal feed or market grain

In the United States and Canada, the primary use for maize is as a feed for livestock, forage, silage or grain. "Feed corn" is also being increasingly used for heating; specialized corn stoves (similar to wood stoves) are available and use either feed corn or wood pellets to generate heat. Silage is made by fermentation of chopped green cornstalks. The grain also has many industrial uses, including transformation into plastics and fabrics. Some is hydrolyzed and enzymatically treated to produce syrups, particularly high fructose corn syrup, a sweetener, and some is fermented and distilled to produce grain alcohol. Grain alcohol from maize is traditionally the source of bourbon whiskey. Increasingly ethanol is being used at low concentrations (10% or less) as an additive in gasoline (gasohol) for motor fuels to increase the octane rating, lower pollutants, and reduce petroleum use.

Human consumption of corn and cornmeal constitutes a staple food in many regions of the world. Corn meal is made into a thick porridge in many cultures: from the polenta of Italy, the angu of Brazil, the mămăligă of Romania, to mush in the U.S. or the food called sadza, nshima, ugali and mealie pap in Africa. It is the main ingredient for tortillas, atole and many other dishes of Mexican food, and for chicha, a fermented beverage of Central and South America. The eating of corn on the cob varies culturally. It is common in the United States but virtually unheard of in some European countries.

Sweetcorn is a genetic variation that is high in sugars and low in starch that is served like a vegetable. Popcorn is kernels of certain varieties that explode when heated, forming fluffy pieces that are eaten as a snack.

Maize can also be prepared as hominy, in which the kernels are bleached with lye; or grits, which are coarsely ground corn. These are commonly eaten in the Southeastern United States, foods handed down from Native Americans. Another common food made from maize is corn flakes. The floury meal of maize (cornmeal or masa) is used to make cornbread and Mexican tortillas. Teosinte is used as fodder, and can also be popped as popcorn.

http://www.answers.com/topic/maize

by SFCraig Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:16 am

Stephanie wrote:You haven't got a freaking clue what you're talking about, Aaron. Not a freaking clue.

You're talking about people living at home with their parents or sponging off a schmuck girlfriend working to pay for those extras. They aren't getting food stamps or heating assistance. Not everybody working for unlivable wages has somebody else taking care of them.

The people actually trying to support themselves on those wages can't purchase cell phones and trendy clothes. They're going to work and trying to make ends meet.

Agreed. Also, Aaron's confidence in Housing/Banks leaves out one important factor. The banks don't hold the titles very often any more.

You should read up on CDOs and Mortgage backed Securities. One woman just won a lawsuit the other day because the bank foreclosed on her. Her Lawyers argued that they couldn't foreclose because THE BANK DIDN'T OWN THE HOUSE!

by TerryRC Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:35 am

Did the livestock stop eating corn?

There has been a big shift to soy as sileage and feed.

I wouldn't be surprised if the big corn feed producers were partially being the push for ethanol.

The market is already glutted with the products that can be made with field corn, outside of animal feed. It is dirt cheap.

Like I said, if these growers, that have now lost many of their old livestock owning buyers, lose the alcohol market, they are going to have to learn some new tricks, such as switching to another variety or crop and learning to find and sell to new clientèle and markets.

by SamCogar Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:23 am

TerryRC wrote:Did the livestock stop eating corn?

There has been a big shift to soy as sileage and feed.

You betchaa Steph, ...... if TRC says there has been a BIG SHIFT to soy beans then by damn that is ................... geek

U.S. SOYBEAN USE BY LIVESTOCK (2004)
Is the economy this bad? - Page 3 Soybean

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.illinoislivestock.org/images/soybean.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.illinoislivestock.org/ProductionFacts/ImpactonSoybeans.php&h=201&w=394&sz=24&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=fGpp_oIVcvfkdM:&tbnh=63&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbeef%2Band%2Bmilk%2Bproducers%2Bfeeding%2Bsoybeans%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX

Livestock Production Reduced
Higher corn prices affect the livestock sector because of corn’s importance as an animal feed. In response to higher corn prices, red meat production declines and growth in poultry output slows in the United States, particularly during the next several years as ethanol production ramps up. Higher corn prices reduce the profitability of meat production, although the greater availability of distillers grains from dry-mill ethanol production partly offsets this effect

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thepigsite.com/articles/contents/07-05-23Graph.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.thepigsite.com/articles/7/markets-and-economics/1959/ethanol-expansion-in-the-united-states-how-will-the-agricultural-sector-adjust&h=229&w=524&sz=9&hl=en&start=44&tbnid=wtP0BiiUo4a8xM:&tbnh=58&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbeef%2Band%2Bmilk%2Bproducers%2Bfeeding%2Bsoybeans%26start%3D40%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Steph, you and I should have a Master's Degree and then we would be as smart as TRC.

Is the economy this bad? - Page 3 197570

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by Aaron Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:40 am

Another problem is that the number of soy bean farms has declined over the past couple of years with farmers switching to much more profitable corn.

by **Stephanie** Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:44 am

Terry,

The problem with livestock switching to soybeans is it drives the price of soy up. There is only so much farmland available. I'm sure this is very good for farmers with land capable of growing field corn and/or soy. It isn't good for hungry people because it is taking that farmland out of the food production line, anyway you look at it.

When discussing this with my husband after reading Sam's answer about field corn being used for everything from corn flakes to corn syrup he said that the quality of meat from cattle and swine fed soy instead of corn is lower.

My 17 y/o daughter, hearing me ask the question blurted out...."So what's the result? Every time you make a major change like that there is a reaction."

It defies logic to think that mandated ethanol wouldn't impact food prices, and it is.

by TerryRC Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:42 am

The problem with livestock switching to soybeans is it drives the price of soy up. There is only so much farmland available. I'm sure this is very good for farmers with land capable of growing field corn and/or soy. It isn't good for hungry people because it is taking that farmland out of the food production line, anyway you look at it.

Silage also comes from the leaves and stems. The beans can still be harvested for human consumption and the rest used for feed.

Soy is a nitrogen fixer. You rotate soy through your fields every two or three years, if you can.

The number of soy growers, in this state, anyway, is on the rise, contrary to Aaron's assertion.

Don't take my word for it, give USDA Ag. Statistics a call.

Also, Sam's little pie chart (and his douchy little slam at my education) just shows the distribution of soy in livestock, not how much is used.

In other words, it didn't tell us anything.

by SamCogar Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:05 pm

TerryRC wrote:The problem with livestock switching to soybeans is it drives the price of soy up. There is only so much farmland available. I'm sure this is very good for farmers with land capable of growing field corn and/or soy. It isn't good for hungry people because it is taking that farmland out of the food production line, anyway you look at it.

Silage also comes from the leaves and stems. The beans can still be harvested for human consumption and the rest used for feed.

Soy is a nitrogen fixer. You rotate soy through your fields every two or three years, if you can.

The number of soy growers, in this state, anyway, is on the rise, contrary to Aaron's assertion.

Don't take my word for it, give USDA Ag. Statistics a call.

Also, Sam's little pie chart (and his douchy little slam at my education) just shows the distribution of soy in livestock, not how much is used.

In other words, it didn't tell us anything.

YEAH, you are as right as you usually are, TerryRC, …… so why don’t you contact the Illinois Livestock Development Group at this site, http://www.illinoislivestock.org/Aboutildg.php

and tell them they don’t know shidt from shinola about raising and marketing corn and soy beans in Illinois or anywhere else, ……..

and that they should come to WV and you will tell them what they really need to know about farming of feed grains …..

and that you will show them some REALLY BIG CORNFIELDS here in West Virginia.

YUP, hundreds of cornfields here in WV that are BIG ENOUGH that they just might be able to turn one of their tractors around in so they could head back in the direction they came from.

Is the economy this bad? - Page 3 33948

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by TerryRC Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:26 am

Sam. I'm trying to find a point in your little rant and I just can't.

Is one of my statements in error?

Why don't you take a mood equalizer and address them?

I made a statement about the corn market and about how eliminating mandatory use of EtOH will hurt some corn growers now that the market has adjusted and will do little to bring the cost of food down. Use of soy IS on the rise, particularly as livestock feed. Putting that corn out on the food and feed market will glut it.

Which of those statements, or others, do you feel is so misguided?

In addition to that, the cost of food could come back down if the fed and markets wanted it to.

Hell, doesn't the government still pay farmers not to grow crops in the land bank program?

In years past, in CNY, I have seen milk dumped into ditches by Sealtest after buying it from farmers because it was better to waste it than glut the market and have prices fall.

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