John McCain chooses female running mate. Liberals furious.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Sex/story?id=3048738

I do not know first hand if abstinence only sex ed programs work.

But I do believe in objective studies using accepted scientific methods.

The above link indicates that "abstinence only" education programs have zero effect.

I believe that means the teen pregnancy rate is neither higher nor lower among those girls who have been subjected to such programs.

Perhaps there are other studies which indicate otherwise.

I do tend to believe these results however.

HI Sod and welcome,

I don't think sex ed, with or without abstinence or with or without an exclusive emphasis on abstinence, has yet had much of an effect.
Sex isn't the issue and I think we need to realize that. Teens are full of hormones, particularly boys, and teen girls want to be wanted.

Teens do not need help in learning about sex or how to have it or how to prevent pregnancy. Any teen knows how pregnancies occur and how to prevent them. They have to be convinced that preventing pregnancy is important in the first place, and no amount of sex ed is going to do that.

I also believe that there is a moral component to promoting abstinence and ought to be the responsibility of the churches. I believe in abstinence, not primarily as a means to prevent pregnancy, but rather as someone's pre-marital moral obligation. Focusing on it as a means to prevent pregnancy, rather than a moral duty, is I think part of the problem. Teens simply want to have sex and need a good reason not to, and as far as their hormones can tell, good reasons don't exist.

Those are all good points, and I agree with most of them.

I don't pretend to have inherent knowledge on the matter, only intuition.

However in this instance it appears my intuition jives with the scientific research.

I would not object to more research if the supporters of "abstinence only" programs are not convinced of their ineffectiveness, but at some point I think we need to pull the plug on public funding of lost causes.

The above link indicates our tax dollars have been used in such programs since 1996.

I realize not all well meaning programs will work and do not object to some "trial and error", but at some point we need to cut our losses and try something else.

(or at least just cut our losses.)

TerryRC wrote:You seek to diminish her many accomplishments as a public official because she doesn't share your political ideology. She is a pro-life conservative who does far more than just talk the talk.

Really? I called them as they lay. I didn't seek to diminish anything. I happen to think "beauty pageants" promote unrealistic expectations in our young girls and society as a whole. That McCain always picks from this crowd is telling.

Don't you remember Keli mocking "democrat women" because most of them he considers to be ugly?

If teaching about and providing birth control to teenage girls are as effective as you'd have us believe, why is the teen pregnancy rate still so high? Why are some STD's at epidemic proportions among our youth?

The rate is high but dropping.

The pregnancies still happen because many parents try and limit access to birth control, thinking it will keep their precious little snowflakes from having sex. Other times turgid teens just go for it without thinking. Many kids in religious chastity youth groups like the various "golden ring" societies will have anal sex because it isn't "really having sex", spreading various STD's.

Ignorance and an abstinence-only education aren't going to solve the problem. Proper sex ed can't make the problem worse.

Why would you assume, Steph, that sex ed should only be for teenage girls?

I wonder if an unintended pregnancy that didn't end in abortion has ever been so celebrated by the left?

Don't take "humor" lessons from Keli, Sheik. It will make you less of a person.

I have zero problem with beauty pagents for young women. It isn't for me to decide how other people spend their time and live their lives. Many years ago I worked with a young woman who was Miss RI. Her older sister was a former Miss RI. Both of those women were very talented, intelligent, and had significant accomplishments. Those beauty pagents you are knocking provided them with a platform to discuss issues they held dear, scholarships to continue their educations, travel opportunities and an enviable network of contacts. That was an aspect of those pagents I really had zero clue about until Cheryl became Miss RI and I got to know her sister a little bit.

You're not going to rope me into defending Keli and his statements or his beliefs. I have grown fond of Keli and enjoy our "conversations" but he doesn't speak for me and I have no desire to speak for him. I will say this, I found his comments about the women Democrats and their physical attributes in comparison to the GOP women hilarious, and basically true. Laura Bush, Cindy McCain, Sarah Palin, Elizabeth Dole......these women are all very pretty. It isn't their fault, or Keli's, Janet Reno and Hillary Clinton hit a few branches as they fell out of the ugly tree!

I don't think that sex education is only for girls. I do happen to believe that sex education is something that should be dealt with by parents, not the government or agents of the government. I also know that the government and our society is sending a very mixed message to our youth regarding sex and responsibility. If Joey gets Janie pregnant he's financially responsible for nearly two decades should she "choose" to have that child. On the other hand, if Janie wants to abort Joey's unborn child there's nothing Joey can do about it. Janie can do whatever she wants with her body including, but not limited to, paying someone to murder Joey's baby. I would think it must seem to both Janie and Joey all the power rests with Janie and I have always believed with great power comes great responsibility. Joey is basically powerless in this situation and imho his level of responsibility has been nearly obliterated.

I don't know where you've been getting your stats from, Terry, but STD's among teenagers are rampant and the youth who have been indoctrinated with the garbage taught in sex ed classes in public schools are spreading disease at some of the highest rates in history. The fact is that most methods of birth control, including the pill, do nothing to prevent the spread of STD's yet millions of teenagers are prescribed oral contraceptives that prevent pregnancy but leave them susceptible to everything from AIDS to genital warts.

well, I'm not sure if those points are good or not, sodbuster, but it is good to see you here. We're always looking for new folks with whom to discuss these serious things. Abstinence does work although I'd be loath to claim that our weak psyches will allow us to rely upon abstinence.

I doubt anyone would argue that abstinence does not work.

And if "abstinence only" sex ed programs actually resulted in more abstinence I would not object to public funds being used for that.

However these programs seem to have another ulterior purpose.

A cynical purpose, some would argue.

Of course abstinence works whenever it's tried. And I am very much pro-abstinence. I would suggest merely that it ought to be taught in the churches and then from a "this is the right thing to (not) do" approach as to "this will get you pregnant" approach. The male mind, in particular, has no ability to comprehend consequences until it's at least 30, and if you ask my wife, not even then.

Sexual abstinence doesn't work for most people the same reason that food fasting does not work for most people.

SheikBen wrote:The male mind, in particular, has no ability to comprehend consequences until it's at least 30, and if you ask my wife, not even then.

Hey now! Let's not cast such personal aspersions here. I resemble that remark- according to Ms. Ziggy .................... . But what does she know?

ziggy wrote:Sexual abstinence doesn't work for most people the same reason that food fasting does not work for most people.

I'm not anti-sex, Zig. My wife is at 3 am when I wake her up with some awkward move, but that's beside the point. And, if you have ever seen a picture of me, you know that I am not anti-food, either. Just as eating too much of a good thing,or eating the wrong thing, or with wrong preparation, leads to disaster, so too is there a right and wrong way for the no-no cha cha.

I believe in abstinence before marriage. I also believe that this is a message primarily for the churches to deliver. We're not doing a very good job within our churches, perhaps if we did we would have a platform for encouraging others.

My point is that teens need a good reason not to have sex, and threatening them with pregnancy or an STD is clearly not doing the trick. They know all about these consequences and carry on despite them. The teens that I work with have no appreciation for where their actions, whatever they may be, are taking them.

That leads me to believe that the approach needs to be one from morality rather than pragmatic concerns (although they are certainly related--God's directions are as much descriptive as they are proscriptive). Right now I am convinced that teens are not convinced that premarital sex is wrong, and in a world without consequences (oh to be 16 again), that was the only thing that was going to help them not get pregnant or contract syphilis.

The Church is trying very hard, and perhaps the answer is in providing teens places to be on Saturday nights that do not involve two teens being alone. At any rate I do not want either my children's morals or their "development" directed by a public school teacher. I say call public school sex ed the failure that it is and go about teaching these kids to read.

I don't know where you've been getting your stats from, Terry, but STD's among teenagers are rampant and the youth who have been indoctrinated with the garbage taught in sex ed classes in public schools are spreading disease at some of the highest rates in history. The fact is that most methods of birth control, including the pill, do nothing to prevent the spread of STD's yet millions of teenagers are prescribed oral contraceptives that prevent pregnancy but leave them susceptible to everything from AIDS to genital warts.

Because you have bought into the media scare tactics.

Remember when we argued about the fact that our kids are safer now than they have ever been?

Teen pregnancies and STD's ARE dropping.

Don't take my word for it, do a little research.

You're not going to rope me into defending Keli and his statements or his beliefs. I have grown fond of Keli and enjoy our "conversations" but he doesn't speak for me and I have no desire to speak for him. I will say this, I found his comments about the women Democrats and their physical attributes in comparison to the GOP women hilarious, and basically true. Laura Bush, Cindy McCain, Sarah Palin, Elizabeth Dole......these women are all very pretty. It isn't their fault, or Keli's, Janet Reno and Hillary Clinton hit a few branches as they fell out of the ugly tree!

Which is it then? Do looks matter or not? I'm not allowed to point out that Palin was a beauty queen but it is allowable to mock Clinton for looking like a bulldog?

Well, by all means, let us ignore the fact that we have unreal expectations for women in this country. That makes it cool to belittle someone because they don't live up to our standards of beauty.

I know that I, for one, will focusing on Palin's tits rather than the fact that she took the money for the "bridge to nowhere" and then lied about it.

I will also ignore the fact that she cashiered a librarian that wouldn't get together with her on censoring books.

I will also ignore the fact that she flew 11 hours each way to give a speech while 8 months pregnant with her most recent child.

Way to go, Mom!

Terry,

On another thread, you claimed that humans are just animals. Well, doesn't the peacock with the prettiest feathers get the female peacock?

People fly on long trips all the time. A friend of mine flew to Singapore while 8 months pregnant.

As for censoring books, the list that has circulated on the internet is completely bogus, but I understand that she had a tiff with a librarian, I believe while mayor. Perhaps in your neck of the woods public officials never have parochial skirmishes.

And, if you have ever seen a picture of me, you know that I am not anti-food, either.

The ironies here are uncanny. I resemble that remark, too- though less so now than a few years ago, I proudly say.

I topped out in the 280s while in WVA, slimmed down to 205 while on the Atkins Diet in Chicago, and I'm back up closer to 280 these days. I believe the technical term for my situation is that I am a "fatty boombaladay"

On another thread, you claimed that humans are just animals. Well, doesn't the peacock with the prettiest feathers get the female peacock?

Yes. They get to breed, not be in line to run a country.

Palin knew she was in for a complicated pregnancy and flew against all sane medical advice. I call that brilliant.

There is more to the story. She took her little city and ran it into the ground.

Palin also raised taxes such as the sales tax.

As mayor of the grand metropolis of Wassila, Palin was nearly recalled after firing the Police Chief for not endorsing her in the 1996 election.

Mayor Palin, while using a line item veto on a few projects, she presided over a 33% increase in spending over 6 years, leaving the mess to the next mayor.

There were other women in the GOP that would have been really terrific and definitely more experienced to run with McCain. Instead, they pick this cupcake.

I was going to vote GOP. Now I just may stay home.

By all means, question Michelle Obama's patriotism. Mock Obama when he asks the media to leave his family out of it. But never, never bring Palin's family into things - that is just sexist.

Bah...

Have you ever heard me say not to vote for Obama because of his wife?

Nope.

Have you ever heard me say not to vote for Obama because of his wife?

I was making a generalization. I know it doesn't apply to everyone.

I was trying to make a point - Obama and his wife have been raked over the coals.

Here Palin is using her family for popularity ("hockey mom") but we aren't allowed to look too closely lest we be sexist.

I don't have a problem with scrutiny, and I think 98% of the claims of sexism coming from the Republicans are bogus.

I do think that the media are paying exponentially more attention to Palin than they are the other three. Given Palin's immediate rise, this is understandable. I think they have been generally unfair to the Republicans and this election is no exception, but I have to say that those who agree with me have been overstating their cases.

I do think that the media are paying exponentially more attention to Palin than they are the other three. Given Palin's immediate rise, this is understandable. I think they have been generally unfair to the Republicans and this election is no exception, but I have to say that those who agree with me have been overstating their cases.

You are, of course, kidding.

The media has been VERY easy on Palin. There has been little outcry about her cloistering and the fact that she will only do interviews with people that will throw her "softballs".

Obama may have had more media "face time" than McCain but has definitely had to deal with more controversy (some of it quite bogus).

I am not, of course, kidding. The media are playing "catch up." While cries of bloody murder are overstated, they are, out of necessity perhaps, spending a lot of time covering Palin and hunting desperately for ghosts. Troopergate may well give them their best shot, but if Palin plays it well, she can be even better for it being an issue. As long as the alledged creep did the drinking in the squad car and the tasering of his stepson, I don't see why he should be given a pass for committing adultery on Palin's sisterinlaw.

As long as the alledged creep did the drinking in the squad car and the tasering of his stepson, I don't see why he should be given a pass for committing adultery on Palin's sisterinlaw.

But if he had not been drinking in a squad car or tasering a stepson, it would be OK to give him a "pass" for committing adultery on Palin's stepsister?

Is adultery a violation of his terms of employment or a crime in Alaska? I sort of get the feeling that drinking in the squad care and tasering family members violate both Alaska law and the terms of employment.

So then if that's what is was / is, why can't she just be honest enough to come clean and say she wanted him fired because he drank alcohol in his squad car and tasered a kid? Almost everyone, including me, would support her on that. But why the denials when the truth would serve her better- if that's what the truth is.

I'm beginning to think my husband and I are the only people in the nation not hanging on every scintilla of information that comes out about Sarah Palin.

I honestly don't know the first thing about this investigation other than that she fired the public safety director (or some similar position) and there are allegations that person was fired because he/she wouldn't fire Palin's former brother-in-law.

I'm not voting for her, or McCain, so I really don't care much.

I will say this.......

I belong to a Yahoo group for secular homeschoolers. In the "Off Topic" version of the group Sarah Palin has been the only topic of discussion. I find the comments hypocritical and appalling there.

The differences between secular homeschoolers and homeschoolers who are evangelical in some respects are minor, but in others quite glaring. Secular homeschool mothers lean heavily to the left. Diversity is their religion. They are actively trashing this woman on that list, saying she is a bad mother and a lousy wife and right-wing religious fanatic. What they are attacking most is her decision to run for VP because she has a special needs infant.

It is just so hypocritical. They celebrate liberal mothers leaving their children in the care of nannies and au pairs and other relatives to pursue careers in medicine, law, journalism, and politics. They have tales of long suffering friends and relations who work full time while raising special needs kids, yet a conservative woman does something similar and they're ready to lynch her.

I said before McCain selected her, I thought Palin would make the best running mate for the GOP ticket. I also said that in my opinion, given her circumstances, I thought if he should ask she should decline. However, that is a decision for Sarah Palin and her husband to make, not Stephanie in Leon, WV or homeschooling Feminazi's from Bangor to Houston to Seattle.

The simple fact of the matter is that Sarah Palin has energized the GOP base, John McCain's campaign, and moderate women from coast to coast. Those on the left can't stand it and they will stop at nothing to discredit Sarah Palin, including dragging her children through the mud. It's disgusting.

I mostly agree, Stephanie.

Since I am not voting for McCain in any event, it's mostly an academic discussion for me. I think the liberals would be better off to focus on McCain-Palin and their political issues rather than on either his or her non-political persona. Like you, I do not understand the obsession with Palin the wife-mother-turned national politician.