Muslim inmate sues to get halal meat

TerryRC wrote:
Which doesn't matter as English common law holds the same origins as does Old English law and that is Christianity. [/i]

No, it doesn't. It has its roots in places like the Roman Senate, the Iroquois Confederacy and the Code of Hammurabi.


The way I see it, you've got to refute what Harry S. Truman, Sam Adams, James Madison, John Jay and everyone else in the article I linked said, which as far as I'm concerned proves my point.

I don't have to refute anything. The Bill of Rights has already done that.

Since we are talking about "proof", however, how about the Treaty of Tripoli, a legally binding document that says:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Game, set, match?

The historical record from the foregoing quotes from past Presidents, leaders, Congressmen, Jurists and court decisions, seems firmly on the side of those claiming that America was born and maintained as a Christian nation whose laws, morals, and customs derive from Christian (and Jewish) scriptures. The opponents of this view, however, point to the first sentence of Article 11 of the obscure Tripoli Treaty of 1797 as seeming conclusive proof that America was never a Christian nation. Before discussing that critical sentence, the treaty itself should be read in context with all of the Barbary treaties.

The Barbary States on the coast of North Africa, comprising the Moslem States of Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli, attacked ships in their coastal waters which would not pay tribute, and held captives for ransom. The European nations had treaties with those states, under which, in exchange for tribute, shipping was protected. After the Revolutionary War, our new nation followed the lead of those European nations and entered into similar treaties. Breach of those treaties by the Barbary nations led to the Barbary wars in 1801.

The first treaty was with Morocco in 1786, negotiated by Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin. It was written in Arabic with an English translation. The treaty language assumes that the world was divided between Christians and Moors (Moslems), e.g. "If we shall be at war with any Christian Power ... .", "... no Vessel whatever belonging either to Moorish or Christian Powers with whom the United States may be at War ... .", "...be their enemies Moors or Christians." These along with numerous references to God, e.g., "In the name of Almighty God,", "... trusting in God ...", "Grace to the only God", "...the servant of God ...", "... whom God preserve ...". are the only references to religion in this treaty of Peace and Friendship.

The next was the Treaty of Peace and Amity with Algiers in 1795,written in Turkish. The only reference to religion was in Article 17 which gave the Consul of the United States "... Liberty to Exercise his Religion in his own House [and] all Slaves of the Same Religion shall not be impeded in going to Said Consul's house at hours of prayer... ." The Consul's house was to function in lieu of a Christian church.

The Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and Navigation with Tunis in 1797 was in Turkish with a French translation. It begins "God is infinite.", and refers to the Ottoman Emperor "whose realm may God prosper", and to the President of the United States "... the most distinguished among those who profess the religion of the Messiah, ...." Other than a reference to "the Christian year", there is no further mention of religion.

The Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli was signed in 1796 in Arabic, and was later translated into English by Joel Barlow, United States Consul General at Algiers. Except for the typical phrases "Praise be to God" and "whom God Exalt", there is no reference to religion other than the aforesaid remarkable Article 11, which reads,

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan (sic) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The treaty, with this language, was submitted to the Senate by President Adams, and was ratified. Thus, opponents of the 'Christian nation' concept point to this seemingly official repudiation of the very idea. Yet the language is less a repudiation of the role of Christianity in the nation's heritage than a reminder that there was no national established church in the United States as there was in the European states with which Tripoli had previously dealt. This provided reassurance to the Moslem Bey and his religious establishment that religion, in of itself, would not be a basis of hostility between the two nations. None of the other similar treaties with the Barbary states, before or after this treaty, including the replacement treaties signed in 1804 after the Barbary Wars, have any language remotely similar.

And there is a deeper mystery: As noted in a footnote at page 1070 of the authoritative treatise by Bevans, Treaties and other International Agreements of the United States of America, citing treaty scholar Hunter Miller.

"While the Barlow translation quoted above has been printed in all official and unofficial treaty collections since 1797, most extraordinary (and wholly unexplained) is the fact that Article 11 of the Barlow translation, with its famous phrase 'the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.' does not exist at all. There is no Article 11. The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point" (Emphasis added)

In sum, the phrase was no doubt an invention of Mr. Barlow, who inserted it on his own for his own, unknown, purposes. It was duly ratified without question by the United States Senate, which would no doubt be hesitant to object to any phraseology which was represented as desired by the Bey of Tripoli, with whom the United States wanted peaceful relations. It remains a mystery.

TerryRC wrote:If you say so Terry.

Nice comeback.

Again... is it your contention that, because most americans are christian, we are a "christian nation"?

Ridiculous.

The majority of americans are also white. Are we a "white nation"?

Aaron wrote:Predominantly, the answer to both questions is yes.

I think part of your problem is that you confuse Christianity with religion and that's your mistake.

Like it or not, this is a Christian nation founded on Christian laws and principals. Even today, ~220 years of assault on religion, 75% of Americans still profess Christian beliefs.

The beauty of our founding fathers is they understood how religion can exploit and that is why they choose to separate church and state.

How it got from a separation to an out right ban on religion just shows that it is not only Christians that exploit and go too far.

TerryRC wrote:The majority is white, also. Are we a "white" nation.

You have ignored this query so far.

I have no doubt you will continue to do so.

bmd wrote:

Stephanie wrote:In America Jews have lots of power and influential friends. Muslims have none.

Is that why Aaron, TerryH, and SheikBen are afraid to cross them (Jews)? Or, is it just plain old vanilla bigotry against Muslims?

TerryRC wrote:I have already made some of these arguments:

One Nation (linky)

Yes, this country has had a christian majority since it's founding. That makes us a largely christian "population", not a "christian nation" as government is necessary to the concept of "nation" and our government is decidedly secular (first amendment, and all).

Refute that. Dare you to try.

Consider the state of Massachusettes, which had the Congregational Church as its official religion until 1833. The first amendment was ratified in 1791. Had the 1st amendment had the effect that you seem to suggest, the reality of Massachusettes makes no sense.

SheikBen wrote:?????????????????????