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Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo...

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Aaron
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Post by sodbuster Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:35 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Media Matters for America

Jul 23, 2004 12:58pm ET

Hannity again falsely claimed Sudan offered bin Laden to Clinton


On July 20, ABC radio host Sean Hannity thrice repeated the false claim that former President Bill Clinton refused a 1996 offer from Sudan to hand Osama bin Laden over to the United States. Hannity has previously propagated this claim, for which the 9-11 Commission found "no reliable evidence to support."

As Media Matters for America has noted, the false claim originated in an August 11, 2002, article on right-wing news website NewsMax.com that distorted a statement Clinton made on February 15, 2002. While addressing the Long Island Association's annual luncheon, Clinton said he "pleaded with the Saudis" to accept Sudan's offer to hand bin Laden over to Saudi Arabia. Sudan never offered bin Laden to the United States, and Clinton did not admit to the Sudan offer in that speech or anywhere else. (Clinton's statements are posted here).

From the July 20 edition of The Sean Hannity Show:

HANNITY: [W]e've got Bill Clinton on tape admitting he was offered by the Sudan to get Osama bin Laden and he didn't take them. They have the video tape and they ignored it.

[...]

HANNITY: How can you plead with the Saudis to take Osama bin Laden if you don't have Osama bin Laden? How can you say, [imitating Bill Clinton] "At the time, he committed no crime against America, so I couldn't bring him here." How could you even contemplate bringing him here if that offer from the Sudan wasn't real and viable?

Hannity attempted to bolster his assertion that the Sudanese offer of bin Laden was "real and viable" by citing "evidence gathered by the 9-11 Commission":

HANNITY: I think another source of potentially damaging revelations as far as the Clinton people would be concerned, evidence gathered by the 9/11 Commission backing up the allegation that President Clinton refused the offer from the government of Sudan for Osama bin Laden, which is a tape that we have been pointing out to you often.

The "evidence" to which Hannity referred is the 9-11 Commission report's statement: "[F]ormer Sudanese officials claim that Sudan offered to expel Bin Ladin to the United States." But the report immediately continued: "Clinton administration officials deny ever receiving such an offer. We have not found any reliable evidence to support the Sudanese claim." Hannity, therefore, endorsed the claims of former officials of Sudan -- a country that the U.S. Department of State has designated as a state sponsor of terrorism every year since 1993 -- rather than the testimony of Clinton administration officials and the findings of the 9-11 Commission.

While Hannity had asserted on his radio program that the 9-11 Commission had "gathered" evidence "backing up the allegation" that Clinton had refused an offer for bin Laden, two days later -- on FOX News Channel's Hannity & Colmes -- he claimed the commission had "ignored" the allegation. Referring to Clinton's 2002 address to the Long Island Association, Hannity said: "[D]oesn't that seem to validate the idea that the Sudan in fact did offer us bin Laden and we passed on him and that the commission ignored that? Are they not ignoring one of the most important failures of our intelligence leading up to this attack?"

As Media Matters for America has noted, Clinton further refuted the allegation in a June 20 interview on CBS's 60 Minutes. He said: "There was a story which is factually inaccurate that the Sudanese offered bin Laden to us. ... As far as I know, there is not a shred of evidence of that."


Well Cato you seem to have a misguided understanding of what it means to document and verify your source.

The fact that the same unsubstantiated claims have been made by others is not credible verification.

Especially when your sources have a pecuniary or political interest.

I bet you never checked the credibility/objectivity of Ijaz or Miniter either one.

Or checked to see if they were responsible for any other cock and bull stories.

Please note that the 9-11 commission was certainly not made up of Clintonistas and they found no credible evidence that this ever happened.

(Oh and by the way, the cited sources reference Sudan, not Somalia. Or was that a different rumor?)

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Post by SamCogar Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:02 am

Clinton also refuted having any form of sexual contact with Monica L.

And I don't believe much of anything the 9-11 Commission has said.

What they did say was mostly a "cover-up" to appease the anger of the American people.

And Congress immediately rushed through an Appropiation Bill to give those directly harmed by the incident ....... a MILLION or so TAX FREE DOLLARS each to keep the "truth of the matter" from being outed in the Courts.

Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo... - Page 2 197570 Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo... - Page 2 197570 Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo... - Page 2 197570 Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo... - Page 2 197570 Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo... - Page 2 197570


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Post by sodbuster Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:31 am

Also Cato here is the conclusion of the 9-11 Commission:

Statements Regarding bin Laden:

According to Ijaz, the Sudanese government offered the Clinton administration numerous opportunities to arrest bin Laden and those opportunities were met positively by Secretary of State Madeleine Albright but spurned when Susan Rice and counter-terrorism czar Richard Clarke persuaded National Security Advisor Sandy Berger to overrule Albright.


Ijaz’s claims in this regard appeared in numerous Op-Ed pieces including one in the Los Angeles Times [3] and one in the Washington Post co-written with former Ambassador to Sudan Timothy Carney .[4]


Similar allegations have been made by Vanity Fair contributing editor David Rose[5] and Richard Miniter, author of Losing bin Laden, in a November 2003 interview with World.[6]

Several sources dispute Ijaz's claim, including the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks on the United States (the 9-11 Commission) which concluded in part “Sudan's minister of defense, Fatih Erwa, has claimed that Sudan offered to hand Bin Ladin over to the United States. The Commission has found no credible evidence that this was so. Ambassador Carney had instructions only to push the Sudanese to expel Bin Ladin. Ambassador Carney had no legal basis to ask for more from the Sudanese since, at the time, there was no indictment out-standing.” [7]


I certainly do not contend that the Commission is infallible.

However I believe they have more credibility than the guys peddling books and/or Clinton's political enemies.

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Post by Aaron Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:43 am

sodbuster wrote:Well Cato you seem to have a misguided understanding of what it means to document and verify your source.

The fact that the same unsubstantiated claims have been made by others is not credible verification.

Especially when your sources have a pecuniary or political interest.

I bet you never checked the credibility/objectivity of Ijaz or Miniter either one.

Or checked to see if they were responsible for any other cock and bull stories.

Please note that the 9-11 commission was certainly not made up of Clintonistas and they found no credible evidence that this ever happened.

(Oh and by the way, the cited sources reference Sudan, not Somalia. Or was that a different rumor?)

Did you listen to the audio link Sodbuster? From what I heard, Bill Clinton had a chance to get bin Laden but passed because he didn't think he had anything to hold him on. In the tape, he said he "pleaded with the Saudi's to take him".

Regardless of what 9/11 said, Bill Clinton's words are what they are. So how's that unsubstantiated?
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Post by sodbuster Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:50 am

I did not listen to the audio.

But I read what I thought was a transcript.

I got to go but will listen to it tonight if I can.

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Post by Cato Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:53 am

sodbuster wrote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well Cato you seem to have a misguided understanding of what it means to document and verify your source.

The fact that the same unsubstantiated claims have been made by others is not credible verification.

Especially when your sources have a pecuniary or political interest.

I bet you never checked the credibility/objectivity of Ijaz or Miniter either one.

Or checked to see if they were responsible for any other cock and bull stories.

Please note that the 9-11 commission was certainly not made up of Clintonistas and they found no credible evidence that this ever happened.

(Oh and by the way, the cited sources reference Sudan, not Somalia. Or was that a different rumor?)

I took the time to look up who Media Matters is. I found the following -

Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media. ...

Launched in May 2004, Media Matters for America put in place, for the first time, the means to systematically monitor a cross section of print, broadcast, cable, radio, and Internet media outlets for conservative misinformation — news or commentary that is not accurate, reliable, or credible and that forwards the conservative agenda — every day, in real time.

Using the website www.mediamatters.org as the principal vehicle for disseminating research and information, Media Matters posts rapid-response items as well as longer research and analytic reports documenting conservative misinformation throughout the media. Additionally, Media Matters works daily to notify activists, journalists, pundits, and the general public about instances of misinformation, providing them with the resources to rebut false claims and to take direct action against offending media institutions.


Which when translated means to twist stories into a postive light for the left. That is why Sherman, I posted a link to the Clinton Press Conference where he admitted it and why I posted articles from both sides of the political spectrum.

By the way, yes I read the article you posted before you had posted it. All that it proves is there is a leftist spin machine that is alive and well. The right has one also. None of that changes the fact that Clinton had the oppertunity to apprehend bin Laden and he didn't do it. Like Bush, he failed, which is something you can't stand.

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Post by sodbuster Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:37 pm

No need to say I cant stand when Clinton does something wrong.

You know better.

Nafta is a prime example where he has been criticized by myself and other progressives.

Dereg of telecommunications, so-called welfare reform, etc.

That is why I could not understand the viciousness of the republican attacks on him.

Heck he carried their water for years.

But that does not mean he gave up an opportunity to get bin Laden.

However the Bush bunch did let him loose at Tora Bora.

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Post by Cato Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:30 pm

sodbuster wrote:No need to say I cant stand when Clinton does something wrong.

You know better.

Nafta is a prime example where he has been criticized by myself and other progressives.

Dereg of telecommunications, so-called welfare reform, etc.

That is why I could not understand the viciousness of the republican attacks on him.

Heck he carried their water for years.

But that does not mean he gave up an opportunity to get bin Laden.

However the Bush bunch did let him loose at Tora Bora.

Don't change the subject, you asked for evidence I gave it to you. Do whatever you want with it. Believe or deny it. It makes no difference to me.

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Post by sodbuster Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:38 pm

Well I just pointed out it is not "evidence".

It is just allegation from another source.

That is how propoganda works.

Say it loud enough and often enough people will start to accept it.

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Post by Aaron Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:59 pm

sodbuster wrote:
However the Bush bunch did let him loose at Tora Bora.

No they didn't. That's a left wing lie.

The Lair of Bin Laden is a fictoid that originated in the highly-enterprising British press on November 27th, 2001. The chronology is as follows. On November 26th, the New York Times carried a story based on the account of an a ex-Russian soldier, Viktor Kutsenko, who had served in Afghanistan in the nineteen-eighties in which he claimed that there had seen an elaborate cave complex in Zhawar with "iron doors" that contained " a bakery, a hotel with overstuffed furniture, a hospital with an ultrasound machine, a library, a mosque, weapons of every imaginable stripe; a service bay with a World War II-era Soviet tank inside, in perfect running order." The historic story then added "Mr. bin Laden is reported to have upgraded both it and a nearby camp in the 1990's."



On November 27th, the London-based Independent came up with its own fairly similar troglodyte story, except that it had moved the underground fortress from Zhawar to Tora Bora, where the manhunt for bin Laden was about to begin, and advanced it in time from the nineteen-eighties to the present.
The Independent headlined: "Al-Qa'ida almost 'immune to attack' inside its hi-tech underground lair." In the story, its correspondent Richard Lloyd Parry, in Jalalabad, described a vast redoubt burrowed deep under a mountain, with labyrinthian tunnels sealed by with iron doors. "It has its own ventilation system and its own power, created by a hydro-electric generator. Its walls and floors in the rooms are smooth and finished and it extends 350 yards beneath a solid mountain." It was therefore tunneled almost as deep as the World Trade Center was high. It was also " so well defended and concealed that – short of poison gas or a tactical nuclear weapon – it is immune to outside attack. And it is filled with heavily armed followers of Osama bin Laden, with a suicidal commitment to their cause and with nothing left to lose."


It further claimed that fortress was built " reportedly employing expertise from Mr bin Laden's Saudi construction businesses" and housed "as many as 2,000 Arab and foreign fighters." The story's putative unidentified witness— the lone deep throat— explained, "It's like a hotel, with doors on the left and the right."


The idea that Osama and his followers had entombed themselves in an unassailable fortress under a mountain immediately embedded itself into the imagination of the American press. The Associated Press put The Independent story on its services, which went to hundreds of major newspapers and broadcasting stations. ABC News re-headlined the story "Bin Laden Hide-out Resembles Hotel: Witness," depicting "The cave complex ... filled with bin Laden's fanatical followers." Yahoo noted in its Internet service "Bin Laden has reputedly built a fortress 1,150 feet (350 meters) beneath the mountains, equipped with water, electricity and ventilation and guarded by hundreds or thousands of fighters ready to die for their leader." CBS, expanding the story, reported that an Afghan "commander thinks bin Laden is in a cave fortress known as Tora Bora. The massive hideout was built by the U.S. to house forces fighting the Soviet Army in the 1980s. The complex - nicknamed "bin Laden's ant farm," is burrowed deep into Gree Khil peak -- soaring 13,000 feet above the village of Tora Bora. It is virtually impregnable -- a latticework of tunnels, storage rooms for arms and munitions, and accommodations for up to a thousand fighters. Ventilation shafts bring fresh air 1,200 feet inside the mountain. A nearby river provides hydroelectric power to the complex... at least 2,000 of bin Laden's al-Qaida fighters are believed to be hiding there," In the Los Angeles Times Professor Mark C. Taylor added to his essay on an ancient troglodyte Hittite city in Turkey that "This city and others like it provide the prototype for the underground fortresses where Bin Laden and his followers are presumed to be hiding;" The Atlanta Journal-Constitution put the underground city in context, saying "The bitter and brutal end game between Osama bin Laden and U.S.-led forces is being played out in a mountain fortress the CIA helped build... equipped with ventilation and hydroelectric power." This bunker-fortress, the story continued, "provides bin Laden with significant advantages... it is considered invulnerable even to bunker-busting bombs and impregnable to conventional military attack." The Times of London meanwhile illustrated its story with an artist's rendering of the underground fortress, which dwarfed even Hitler's infamous "eagle's nest" fortress.


The story probably reached its high point on NBC's Meet The Press on December 2nd when Tim Russert, the host of the program, provided Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld with the artist's rendering of bin Laden's fortress. The interview proceeded:



Russert: The Times of London did a graphic, which I want to put on the screen for you and our viewers. This is it. This is a fortress. This is a very much a complex, multi-tiered, bedrooms and offices on the top, as you can see, secret exits on the side and on the bottom, cut deep to avoid thermal detection so when our planes fly to try to determine if any human beings are in there, it's built so deeply down and embedded in the mountain and the rock it's hard to detect. And over here, valleys guarded, as you can see, by some Taliban soldiers. A ventilation system to allow people to breathe and to carry on. An arms and ammunition depot. And you can see here the exits leading into it and the entrances large enough to drive trucks and cars and even tanks. And it's own hydroelectric power to help keep lights on, even computer systems and telephone systems. It's a very sophisticated operation.


Rumsfeld: Oh, you bet. This is serious business. And there's not one of those. There are many of those. And they have been used very effectively. And I might add, Afghanistan is not the only country that has gone underground. Any number of countries have gone underground. The tunneling equipment that exists today is very powerful. It's dual use. It's available across the globe. And people have recognized the advantages of using underground protection for themselves.


A few weeks after the "Meet the Press" interview, US special forces and their Afghan allies occupied Tora Bora. They painstakingly searched Gree Khil mountain and the surrounding area. They found no underground fortress, no hydro-electric power plant, no 2000-room hotel, no ant farm, no iron doors, no ventilating shafts. The troglodyte Lair of Bin Laden turned out to be mythic.
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Post by Aaron Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:00 pm

sodbuster wrote:Well I just pointed out it is not "evidence".

It is just allegation from another source.

That is how propoganda works.

Say it loud enough and often enough people will start to accept it.

You still didn't listen to it, did you Sodbuster.
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Post by ohio county Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:44 am

That is why I could not understand the viciousness of the republican attacks on him.

Heck he carried their water for years.

In a sort of interesting aside I half-heartedly agree. But, at the same time, I never liked George Bush because he was as near to being a democrat as Clinton was to being a republican. Clinton was at heart a liberal who wanted to run the economy and nationalize health care. He realized his limitations with a republican majority in the Congress and fell back on his DLC reputation as a "modern" progressive. To me that's the same thing as Bush's phony "compassionate" conservatism. Conservatives are already compassionate.
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Post by Cato Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:06 am

sodbuster wrote:Well I just pointed out it is not "evidence".

It is just allegation from another source.

That is how propoganda works.

Say it loud enough and often enough people will start to accept it.

If you say so, but in that propaganda is Clinton's own words out of his own mouth. Additionally, of all the media sources, one of the most realiable is the Wall Street Journal. Additionally, on top of all that I used a couple of sourses that were left leaning.

Now, if you want to believe it is propaganda, that's your choice, I can't change that and I'm not going to try.

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Post by sodbuster Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:22 am

Well OC you are the first republican/rightwinger I can remember who would acknowledge how republican Clinton was.

But it did not avail him.

They hated him with a vengeance.

Maybe they felt so outmatched I dont know.

But to my notion that DLC outfit was the worst thing to happen to the Democrat Party in a long time.

Just remember all the stuff they tried to accuse him of...Vince Foster, Ron Brown "missing" files, Whitewater, etc.

And now here is another example on this thread where they say he turned down an opportunity to nab OBL.

Now I dont think Cato and Aaron are deliberately distorting, I suspect they have been snookered by the coordinated propoganda attacks from their own party's High Command.

It is not that I am smarter than they, it's just that I am on the outside looking at the big picture and they are on the inside.

And cant see the forest for the trees.

But as for me and the Democrats I am not as blinded as they are with the republicans.

Because I am more of a liberal/progressive than a mainstream Democrat.

So I can spot a wannabe republican a mile away.

I think next time I will quit with this pragmatic crap and just come out for Kucinich or whoever the purist progressive is.

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Post by Cato Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:15 am

sodbuster wrote:
Now I dont think Cato and Aaron are deliberately distorting, I suspect they have been snookered by the coordinated propoganda attacks from their own party's High Command.

Did you list to audio? Answer is more than likely "no". Out of Clinton's own mouth, he admitted letting bin Laden go.

sodbuster wrote:It is not that I am smarter than they, it's just that I am on the outside looking at the big picture and they are on the inside.

And cant see the forest for the trees.

But as for me and the Democrats I am not as blinded as they are with the republicans.

You say you are not blind, bull!!!! You'd vote for Adolph Hitler over George Washington if Hilter was a democrat and Washington was a republican. You are nothing short of one of the more bias people I been around.

sodbuster wrote:Because I am more of a liberal/progressive than a mainstream Democrat.

Nope, you are just plain willfully ignorant.

sodbuster wrote:
So I can spot a wannabe republican a mile away.

That is probably one of the more ignorant statement you've made. You couldn't spot a white cat in a mud puddle.

sodbuster wrote:I think next time I will quit with this pragmatic crap and just come out for Kucinich or whoever the purist progressive is.

I hope you get what you want, truthfully. Super high taxes, a failing economy, and government control of every fascet of your life. Then I wonder how long it will be before you are whining about how whoever is in office is too republican.

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Post by ohio county Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:25 am

I can't speak for other republican/righwingers but I always thought Clinton's DLC days were a smokescreen. He was, after all, the first to seriously work on nationalized health care. He was just smart enough to see it wasn't going anywhere and slip out the back door.

In the interest of maintaining your more accomodating mien I'd have to say your observations are interesting but flawed.
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Post by sodbuster Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:57 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090315/pl_afp/uspoliticsobamaattackscheney_20090315172143

Well oc what do you make of this?

The spoonfed media is treating Cheney et al like they are some kind of experts on avoiding terrorist attacks.

Even asking him to critique Obama.

Dont even mention that him and Bush were running things when the biggest terror attack in history was perpetrated against our country.

Go figure.

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Post by ohio county Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:56 pm

There is a spoonfed media but it doesn't favor Cheney. It bends over backwards to make your boy look good, despite having accomplished nothing in sixty days and walking away from economic stimulus. in any realistic scenario Obama is a failure. In your spoonfed media, he's FDR incarnate. FDR was also a failure but that's another thread.
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Post by Stephanie Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:00 pm

Why is this any different than the spoonfed media asking Algore for his thoughts on environmental issues for years after he was out of office while ignoring the extravagance of this lifestyle?
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Post by ohio county Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:02 pm

And despite the fact that he flunked out of Yale and has no technological expertise?
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Post by Stephanie Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:07 pm

Ah, but there are his many other accomplishments. There's the internet and the inspiration for Love Story, for example.
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Post by sodbuster Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:41 pm

deleted


Last edited by sodbuster on Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Stephanie Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:24 pm

From your source:

During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet.

Gore never used the word "invent," and the words "create" and "invent" have distinctly different meanings - the former is used in the sense of "to bring about" or "to bring into existence" while the latter is generally used to signify the first instance of someone's thinking up or implementing an idea.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/create
create
-verb (used with object)

1.to cause to come into being, as something unique that would not naturally evolve or that is not made by ordinary processes.
2.to evolve from one's own thought or imagination, as a work of art or an invention.
3.Theater. to perform (a role) for the first time or in the first production of a play.
4.to make by investing with new rank or by designating; constitute; appoint: to create a peer.
5.to be the cause or occasion of; give rise to: The announcement created confusion.
6.to cause to happen; bring about; arrange, as by intention or design: to create a revolution; to create an opportunity to ask for a raise.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/invent

invent
–verb (used with object)

1.to originate or create as a product of one's own ingenuity, experimentation, or contrivance: to invent the telegraph.
2.to produce or create with the imagination: to invent a story.
3.to make up or fabricate (something fictitious or false): to invent excuses.
4.Archaic. to come upon; find.





I suppose there is a substantial difference. Of course, that all depends upon what your definition of the word "is" is.
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Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo... - Page 2 Empty Re: Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo...

Post by sodbuster Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:37 pm

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Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo... - Page 2 Empty Re: Officials: Afghanistan Taliban leader was at Gitmo...

Post by Stephanie Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:41 pm

It is a bit like plagarism, I confess. Other than that, how is it sleazy when I say or quote these things, but not so when Algore and Bill Clinton say them to the American people?
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