Halloween

I am not against children having fun or getting candy; however, why isn't Halloween a violation of the so-called "separation of church and state?"

I am not against children having fun or getting candy; however, why isn't Halloween a violation of the so-called "separation of church and state?"

If someone argues that the children in the public school are oblivious to the religious significance (to Christians, Wiccans and Satanists) of Halloween and are just having fun, then why can't the same be argued for children participating in a Christmas or Easter party? If the names Christmas and Easter had to be changed to Winter Break and Spring Break, then why shouldn't all references to Halloween also be changed to Fall Festival?

If Christmas Trees can be banned, then why can't all the trappings of Halloween: Jack-o-lanterns, witches, black cats, etc.?

The only hope for ending this violation of church and state is that a Muslim, Jehovah's Witness or Atheist complains about Halloween!

My ex-wife called me the week before Haloween 10 years ago and said "This is the one holiday we didn't work out in our divorce, what are we going to do" to which I replied, "It's not a holiday, if you want to waste your money on costumes to take the kids begging, knock yourself out."

5 years later, I was ask why I never had to buy costumes.

Great story, Aaron!

We don't do Halloween in the Sheik house. I don't think it is evil to go out and beg for candy but I do not want to expose my kids to the occult, even though 95% of Halloween is no doubt innocuous.

Did you and/or your wife "do" Halloween as children?

SheikBen wrote:We don't do Halloween in the Sheik house. I don't think it is evil to go out and beg for candy but I do not want to expose my kids to the occult, even though 95% of Halloween is no doubt innocuous.

Then Halloween is more innocuous than any other day of the year. Because far less than 95 percent of the balance of our lives is innocuous, and far more than 5 percent is of an occult nature.

1oc·cult vt \ə-ˈkəlt, ä-\
Definition of OCCULT
: to shut off from view or exposure : cover, eclipse
— oc·cult·er noun
Examples of OCCULT


Origin of OCCULT
Latin occultare, frequentative of occulere
First Known Use: 1500
Related to OCCULT
Synonyms: belie, blanket, blot out, cloak, conceal, cover, curtain, disguise, enshroud, mask, obscure, 1hide, paper over, screen, shroud, suppress, veil
Antonyms: bare, disclose, display, divulge, expose, reveal, show, uncloak, uncover, unmask, unveil

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/occult

Definitions of occult on the Web:

eclipse: cause an eclipse of (a celestial body) by intervention; "The Sun eclipses the moon today"; "Planets and stars often are occulted by other celestial bodies"
become concealed or hidden from view or have its light extinguished; "The beam of light occults every so often"
supernatural: supernatural forces and events and beings collectively; "She doesn't believe in the supernatural"
hidden and difficult to see; "an occult fracture"; "occult blood in the stool"
hide from view; "The lids were occulting her eyes"
supernatural practices and techniques; "he is a student of the occult"
mysterious: having an import not apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence; beyond ordinary understanding; "mysterious symbols"; "the mystical style of Blake"; "occult lore"; "the secret learning of the ancients"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

The word occult comes from the Latin word occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to "knowledge of the hidden". ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occult

An occultation is an event that occurs when one object is hidden by another object that passes between it and the observer. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occult_(astronomy)

Supernatural affairs; To cover or hide from view; To dissimulate, conceal, or obfuscate; Secret; hidden from general knowledge; undetected; Related to the occult; pertaining to mysticism, magic, or astrology; Esoteric
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/occult

occultism - a belief in supernatural powers and the possibility of bringing them under human control
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

occultly - In an occult manner
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/occultly

The word has many uses in the English language, popularly meaning 'knowledge of the paranormal'. For most practicing occultists it is simply the study of a deeper spiritual "reality" that extends beyond pure reason and the physical sciences.
www.yourghoststories.com/glossary.php

Ideas having to do with the supernatural and mysterious; specifically, in the early 20th Century, a system of Ohidden truthsO leading to metaphysical revelations.
www.artsconnected.org/artsnetmn/identity/idvocab.html

Abstruse, mystical, supernatural, or esoteric.
www.astrocopia.com/glossary.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GPEA_en&defl=en&q=define:occult&sa=X&ei=h1vITOW1G8P48Aav6P3gDw&ved=0CBMQkAE

Stephanie wrote:Did you and/or your wife "do" Halloween as children?

Both of us did, and I think there were real unfortunate results. It's not as though the kids aren't getting candy, Steph. My workplace had a trick or treat event. My kids did not dress up or say "trick or treat," but they got bags and instead said "candy, please" and they had a fine sugar high.

If you want to find irony, there is an amusement park about 2 hours north of here by where we used to live. I loathe amusement parks, driving, and don't do Halloween. What am I doing with my juvenile delinquents tomorrow? Taking them to said amusement park for "Fright Fest."

Growl.

I don't mean to offend you, Mike. I like you, I think you know that but I don't understand why you can't just let your children be children.

You don't like the idea of your children dressed as vampires, witches, zombies or ghouls, dress them like princesses, angels, or super heroes. I think I mentioned once before Richard & Katie attended a Christian school for several years instead of public elementary. Those Baptists weren't too thrilled with Halloween either, but I think they were a little bit more clever about it. Each year they held a big halloween party for the kids on a Friday close to the holiday. They suggested Biblical characters and most of those children did just that. We never did, but I was always careful not to do anything they might find offensive either. Kate was a princess, an angel, Dorothy, and Batgirl. Richard was a clown, the Tin Man, and Benjamin Franklin and Batman. Oh, that kid loved Batman when he was little.

Loyd has no such restrictions. This year he was a zombie surgeon. We thought that was awesome. Can you imagine if he were to really become a doctor? Think of the poor unsuspecting patients hearing "Dr. Butcher, please report to the ER!"

Hi Steph,

Not offended in the least, and hardly surprised. My kids are kids. They climb, get dirty, eat candy, pick their noses, think farts are funny, etc. This is the opposite of a dour house. All three of my kids have tasted beer (in very, very small amounts, of course). It's not legalism or stuffiness, but rather I am determined that I should like to raise my kids in the healthiest environment possible, and Katie Sheik and I have detrmined that involves avoiding ghouls, political or otherwise:)

What about Goosebumps and Harry Potter? I know your children are young, but will you prevent them from reading books about ghouls and the like?

I'm curious Steph, how would you feel if Loyd suddenly decided the only book he wanted to read was the King James Bible, the only television he wanted to watch was Bennie Hinn and Rod Parsley and his new life long dream was to become the next Jimmy Swaggart.

Complete with desert prostitute and all?

Look, I sent my lovely, conservative-libertarian daugher off to a liberal arts college 14 months ago and she's morphed into a population-control tree-hugging radical. It's a phase, and the KJB thing would be a phase too. I'd try not to get too excited, but if he insisted on it I would try to steer him in the direction of better role models than Jimmy & Bennie.

Stephanie wrote:What about Goosebumps and Harry Potter? I know your children are young, but will you prevent them from reading books about ghouls and the like?

I'll discourage it. I don't have the illusion that I can prevent much of anything.

You are wise beyond your years of parenting! lol

Stephanie wrote:Complete with desert prostitute and all?

Look, I sent my lovely, conservative-libertarian daugher off to a liberal arts college 14 months ago and she's morphed into a population-control tree-hugging radical. It's a phase, and the KJB thing would be a phase too. I'd try not to get too excited, but if he insisted on it I would try to steer him in the direction of better role models than Jimmy & Bennie.

That seems a bit hypocritical considering you're criticizing Mike-at least that's how it appears to me-for steering his kids away from celebrating what is generally accepted as the Devils night.

There are public displays of Halloween decorations in public places and offices where Christmas Trees have been banned or replaced with a Holiday Tree.

What's hypocritical, Aaron? Who generally accepts Halloween as "Devil's Night"?

I try very hard not to be judgemental about the way other people parent their children. Who am I to criticize? However, I do find it upsetting when parents deny children of little pleasures in life.

I have come across a number of parents who flat out refuse to do the Santa thing either because they are atheists and object because of the religious aspects of Christmas (I know of no reference in the Bible to a jolly old elf in a red suit traveling by sleigh pulled by flying reindeer to deliver toys) or because Santa is too "commericial" or because he is fantasy and this interfers with the actual religious celebration.

I say childhood is brief and full of so many challenges and just let children enjoy harmless seasonal customs and traditions. As you well know, Aaron, they'll be all grown up and all the mystery will be gone all too soon anyway.

I am unfamiliar with Rod Parsley. I distinctly remember Jimmy Swaggart getting busted with a prostitute in Nevada some years ago. Quite scandalous that one. If I'm correct Bennie what's his face is that fraud scumbag who bilkes desperate people out of their life's savings with promises of cures for everything from cancer to paralysis to vision loss just by laying his oh-so-sacred hands on them. If Loyd decides he wants to be a Christian, I'm fine with that. Some of my best friends and closest relatives are devout Catholics and Baptists and I even have a pretty tight relationship with a Seventh Day Adventist or two. I'm just certain should he decide he wants to become a priest or minister he can do better than Jimmy or Bennie. Franklin Graham perhaps.

Stephanie wrote:What's hypocritical, Aaron? Who generally accepts Halloween as "Devil's Night"?

I try very hard not to be judgemental about the way other people parent their children. Who am I to criticize? However, I do find it upsetting when parents deny children of little pleasures in life.

I have come across a number of parents who flat out refuse to do the Santa thing either because they are atheists and object because of the religious aspects of Christmas (I know of no reference in the Bible to a jolly old elf in a red suit traveling by sleigh pulled by flying reindeer to deliver toys) or because Santa is too "commericial" or because he is fantasy and this interfers with the actual religious celebration.

I say childhood is brief and full of so many challenges and just let children enjoy harmless seasonal customs and traditions. As you well know, Aaron, they'll be all grown up and all the mystery will be gone all too soon anyway.

I am unfamiliar with Rod Parsley. I distinctly remember Jimmy Swaggart getting busted with a prostitute in Nevada some years ago. Quite scandalous that one. If I'm correct Bennie what's his face is that fraud scumbag who bilkes desperate people out of their life's savings with promises of cures for everything from cancer to paralysis to vision loss just by laying his oh-so-sacred hands on them. If Loyd decides he wants to be a Christian, I'm fine with that. Some of my best friends and closest relatives are devout Catholics and Baptists and I even have a pretty tight relationship with a Seventh Day Adventist or two. I'm just certain should he decide he wants to become a priest or minister he can do better than Jimmy or Bennie. Franklin Graham perhaps.

Awomen!

Stephanie wrote:What's hypocritical, Aaron? Who generally accepts Halloween as "Devil's Night"?

I try very hard not to be judgemental about the way other people parent their children. Who am I to criticize? However, I do find it upsetting when parents deny children of little pleasures in life.

I'm sorry. Devil's night is the night before Haloween.

Stephanie wrote:I have come across a number of parents who flat out refuse to do the Santa thing either because they are atheists and object because of the religious aspects of Christmas (I know of no reference in the Bible to a jolly old elf in a red suit traveling by sleigh pulled by flying reindeer to deliver toys) or because Santa is too "commericial" or because he is fantasy and this interfers with the actual religious celebration.

As is their perogative.

Stephanie wrote:I say childhood is brief and full of so many challenges and just let children enjoy harmless seasonal customs and traditions. As you well know, Aaron, they'll be all grown up and all the mystery will be gone all too soon anyway.

Each parent has to decide what they believe is and is not harmless including those who do not want to expose their children to what society accepts as a holiday that celebrates the dark side of religion.

Stephanie wrote:I am unfamiliar with Rod Parsley. I distinctly remember Jimmy Swaggart getting busted with a prostitute in Nevada some years ago. Quite scandalous that one. If I'm correct Bennie what's his face is that fraud scumbag who bilkes desperate people out of their life's savings with promises of cures for everything from cancer to paralysis to vision loss just by laying his oh-so-sacred hands on them. If Loyd decides he wants to be a Christian, I'm fine with that. Some of my best friends and closest relatives are devout Catholics and Baptists and I even have a pretty tight relationship with a Seventh Day Adventist or two. I'm just certain should he decide he wants to become a priest or minister he can do better than Jimmy or Bennie. Franklin Graham perhaps.

I'm not a Benny Hinn fan and I'm certainly no Jimmy Swaggart fan but I don't find Franklin Graham any more respectable then either of them as the Graham ministry was built in the same fashion as the others, of the donations of others. One could argue that Hinn's downfall is that he is more blatant then the Graham ministries.

At any rate, I took your meaning of you would steer him away to mean you would steer him away from religion. That is what I would deem hypocritical.

My apologies.

Carry on.

There are public displays of Halloween decorations in public places and offices where Christmas Trees have been banned or replaced with a Holiday Tree.

Banned by what authority? So what do you have against Holiday Trees?

That seems a bit hypocritical considering you're criticizing Mike-at least that's how it appears to me-for steering his kids away from celebrating what is generally accepted as the Devils night.

"Generally accepted" by whom? I don't think it is "generally accepted" that there is a Devil, even less "the Devil's night".

For most Americans Halloween is a time of fall season frivolity and harmless spoofery of imaginary witches and goblins.