Less than half of students proficient in science

Cato wrote:Let's see you've told me that teachers are the major problem,

No I did not. I said teachers and their unions collectively are the biggest obstacle to what a kid learns. My statement from Jan 26th.

Aaron wrote:The biggest obstruction to what a kid learns is teachers and their unions. That's not to say they are the only problem but they are certainly the biggest obsticle.

For what it's worth, I could have been clearer and said they are the biggest obstacle in improving education for your youth but even so, I made my point. So is there a reason you distort the truth?

Cato wrote:because they oppose every proposal that comes along, you've concluded that I'm a complete moron,

Teachers opposing every proposal has nothing to do with me thinking your a moron.

Cato wrote:and you have accused me of living at the liberal tough.

What is it your wife does for a living again?

Cato wrote:Outside of that you haven't done much of anything.

Besides back up what I stated, you are right.

Aaron wrote:

Cato wrote:Let's see you've told me that teachers are the major problem,

No I did not. I said teachers and their unions collectively are the biggest obstacle to what a kid learns. My statement from Jan 26th.

Here is what you said and when you said it -

Re: Less than half of students proficient in science
by Aaron on Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:48 am

.Charter schools-teachers oppose
Voucher-teachers oppose
Teacher profeciency testing-teachers oppose
Paying teacher for tougher courses such as math and science-teachers oppose
Extended weeks to ensrue 180 days of instruction-teachers oppose
Year round school-teachers oppose
Teacher accountability-teachers oppose
Even elimintating compulsory attendance laws-teachers oppose
Strengthening the curriculm-teachers oppose.

Consider it backed. .

And all I have trying to say is they are allowed to do this by the administration.

Aaron wrote: What is it your wife does for a living again?

My wife is unemployed. She resigned this fall and, no, she's not retired. She got fed up with both the education system and the moronic public. Further, she is not a part of the discussion so leave her out of it. Finally, you can't find in this post where I have defended teachers, because I haven't.

Aaron wrote:

Cato wrote:Outside of that you haven't done much of anything.

Besides back up what I stated, you are right.

If you think so

When you started blaming the others for teacher shortcomings, you are defending teachers as county administrations are controlled by the legislature and as I've proven, education in the legislature is controlled by teachers. What about that is difficult for you to understand.

And your wife quit before retiring, she still retains her seniority and retirement so even if she doesn't return to teaching, you still have a vest interest in the public teat.

Aaron wrote:When you started blaming the others for teacher shortcomings, you are defending teachers as county administrations are controlled by the legislature and as I've proven, education in the legislature is controlled by teachers. What about that is difficult for you to understand.

And your wife quit before retiring, she still retains her seniority and retirement so even if she doesn't return to teaching, you still have a vest interest in the public teat.

So what you are saying is if a black man is elected to office he has a vested interest in keeping the race card alive and thus he does because of his color, or if a person who served in the military is elected to office his vested interest in the military means we will favor military causes because of his interest, or if a woman is elected to office she will favor feminist issues because she is a woman.

That, Aaron, is pure bullshit.

No Cato, that is not what I'm saying.

I am curious about one other thing Cato. In your ongoing quest to excuse teachers by blaming "administrations", do you realize that those administrations you want to place in the crosshairs are made up of former teachers?

Aaron wrote:I am curious about one other thing Cato. In your ongoing quest to excuse teachers by blaming "administrations", do you realize that those administrations you want to place in the crosshairs are made up of former teachers?

First of all, I haven't excused teachers of anything. I am saying they get away with what they do because the administration charged with the ultimate responsibility of controling and providing that education allows it.

Aaron wrote:No Cato, that is not what I'm saying.

No, that is exactly what you said.

Cato wrote:

Aaron wrote:I am curious about one other thing Cato. In your ongoing quest to excuse teachers by blaming "administrations", do you realize that those administrations you want to place in the crosshairs are made up of former teachers?

First of all, I haven't excused teachers of anything.

When you shift the blame as you have all along, including this very paragraph, that is exactly what you are doing.

Cato wrote:I am saying they get away with what they do because the administration charged with the ultimate responsibility of controling and providing that education allows it.

So what are they getting away with? Please clarify?

And I can't help but note that you didn't answer my question so I'll ask again.

Are you aware that administrations you are attempting to shift the blame to while excusing teachers is made up of former teachers?

Cato wrote:

Aaron wrote:No Cato, that is not what I'm saying.

No, that is exactly what you said.

No, that is not what I am saying. That is you trying to change the conservation because you have no argument. And even though we all know this is your goal, I will tell you why you are it you are wrong.

First, your argument relies on the assumption that for a black man or a woman to win an election, the outcome is based on race and gender and not with the merits of either candidate. I think you're full of shit on that assumption.

As for a former military person, I’m not sure what your point is and to be honest, I don't think you do either. Once again, I think you are full of shit and you just through that in there durning your mindless rant but if you wish to clarify what you mean, feel free.

As for your interest in defending teachers, thats easy. You have a financial interest in the teaching profession of this state as your wife will not only qualify for a retirement, but the medical benefits that come from her profession. That is a financial interest no matter how you try to spin it.

So as you see, no that is not what I was saying thus your sorry attempt to change the conversation has failed. Miserably.

Now man up if you have it in you and answer my question. Anything other then a direct answer is you admitting you are wrong on every aspect of this conversation.

Are you aware that administrations you are attempting to shift the blame to while excusing teachers is made up of former teachers?

Aaron wrote:
When you shift the blame as you have all along, including this very paragraph, that is exactly what you are doing.

So what you are saying is that if your employees screw up and as the manager responsibile for production allow it and do nothing to correct the situation, your superiors shouldn't hold you accountible.

Aaron wrote:So what are they getting away with? Please clarify?

And I can't help but note that you didn't answer my question so I'll ask again.

You say teachers to to blame because they are against thing that would improve education. It is not the teachers but the adminsitration and politicians that make policy. Teachers may be against some policy, but that doesn't stop the adminsitration from enacting said policies anyways. Teachers don't elect the politicans, the public does.

Aaron wrote: No, that is not what I am saying. That is you trying to change the conservation because you have no argument. And even though we all know this is your goal, I will tell you why you are it you are wrong.

First, your argument relies on the assumption that for a black man or a woman to win an election, the outcome is based on race and gender and not with the merits of either candidate. I think you're full of shit on that assumption.

As for a former military person, I’m not sure what your point is and to be honest, I don't think you do either. Once again, I think you are full of shit and you just through that in there durning your mindless rant but if you wish to clarify what you mean, feel free.

I don't think so. I haven't changed anything. I just took your arguement as you stated it and substituted blacks, military, and women for teachers.

Aaron wrote:As for your interest in defending teachers, thats easy. You have a financial interest in the teaching profession of this state as your wife will not only qualify for a retirement, but the medical benefits that come from her profession. That is a financial interest no matter how you try to spin it.

So as you see, no that is not what I was saying thus your sorry attempt to change the conversation has failed. Miserably.

Now man up if you have it in you and answer my question. Anything other then a direct answer is you admitting you are wrong on every aspect of this conversation.

Are you aware that administrations you are attempting to shift the blame to while excusing teachers is made up of former teachers?

First, I scrape more manhood out from under my little finger nail than you have in your whole body. Secondly, I have not and you cannot show me where I have defended any teacher. Third, I don't much care what you think or say, if teachers are the problem, the only way they are the problem or cause the problems is because administration has allowed them to get away with it.

High school administrations are made up of former teachers. County Board of Educations are made up of teachers. The state board of education is made up of teachers. Teachers control the House Education committee. Teachers have tremendous control over the Senate Education Committee and the rest of the legislature. You're trying to boil this down to a teacher in a classroom and that as not what I am saying. I am saying, collectively, teachers and their unions exhort complete control over the education system in West Virginia. I don't know what about that is so difficult for you to understand but your ignorance of the situation does not change the facts.

Cato wrote:I scrape more manhood out from under my little finger nail than you have in your whole body.

Aaron wrote:High school administrations are made up of former teachers. County Board of Educations are made up of teachers. The state board of education is made up of teachers. Teachers control the House Education committee. Teachers have tremendous control over the Senate Education Committee and the rest of the legislature. You're trying to boil this down to a teacher in a classroom and that as not what I am saying. I am saying, collectively, teachers and their unions exhort complete control over the education system in West Virginia. I don't know what about that is so difficult for you to understand but your ignorance of the situation does not change the facts.

Cato wrote:I scrape more manhood out from under my little finger nail than you have in your whole body.

Again for the record here is what you said -

Charter schools-teachers oppose
Voucher-teachers oppose
Teacher profeciency testing-teachers oppose
Paying teacher for tougher courses such as math and science-teachers oppose
Extended weeks to ensure 180 days of instruction-teachers oppose
Year round school-teachers oppose
Teacher accountability-teachers oppose
Even elimintating compulsory attendance laws-teachers oppose
Strengthening the curriculm-teachers oppose.

Consider it backed.

I am saying that if these items you state teachers oppose are not enacted, then it is because the administration, i.e. politicians, i.e. legislature has allowed it.

There is one point that blows you whole arguement out of the water. If what you say is so about how teachers and former teachers exercise such control hows come teachers salaries have been increased in across the board raises in the past two or three years? It isn't that teachers haven't lobbied for increases. The fact of the matter is teaches don't exercise the control you think. While I agree that teachers and their unions do bear some blame, the fact of the matter is the majority of the problem faced by education can be traced right back to the 132 bimbos in the legislature and the morons usually elected governor. Additionally, alot of the problem can be placed on the public who look to government to solve all the problems.

You know Cato, I really don't think it's an act.

Aaron wrote:You know Cato, I really don't think it's an act.

You've yet to address the fact that the administrations you use to excuse the actions of teachers are in fact teachers who are manning a different position then those setting in a classrrom for ~30 hours a week, 43 weeks a year, minus of course those facalty days.

Nothing has changed. Whether it be in the schools, at the county level or the state level, teachers and their unions are the biggest obstacle to improving education in West Virginia.

For the record though, I'm not the least bit suprised that you've failed to address the facts.

Aaron wrote:You've yet to address the fact that the administrations you use to excuse the actions of teachers are in fact teachers who are manning a different position then those setting in a classrrom for ~30 hours a week, 43 weeks a year, minus of course those facalty days.

Nothing has changed. Whether it be in the schools, at the county level or the state level, teachers and their unions are the biggest obstacle to improving education in West Virginia.

For the record though, I'm not the least bit suprised that you've failed to address the facts.

I have addressed it. You just choose to ignore it. Teachers and teachers unions only get what the legislature gives them. Teachers and Teacher unions can demand the moon and stars, but they'll only get what the legislature gives. It's like I said, if what you are say had any validity at all, across the board increases would have taken place nearly every year, yet is hasn't. You know as well as I, pay as always been an issue.

As far as facts goes, I'll address them when you manage to produce a couple.

You ignore the fact that educators control the House Education Committee including the 4 chair positions and greatly influence the legislature. You've addressed nothing. All you've done is excuse your wife and daughters profession. You are part of the problem.

Aaron wrote:You ignore the fact that educators control the House Education Committee including the 4 chair positions and greatly influence the legislature. You've addressed nothing. All you've done is excuse your wife and daughters profession. You are part of the problem.

Ah so now we are getting personal. That's pathetic not to mention the act of a coward, ain't that right, Aaron.

Let's look at your comment for a moment regarding the education committee in the House. They don't enact law. Yes, they allow bills to go to the house floor for debate and that does offer some control I admit, however, for any bill to be come law it has to be debated and passed in both chambers and then is either signed or vetoed by the governor. Everyone of the slobs in the legislature bears responsibility for the policies, i.e. laws they make. One last point, When I looked at the house and senate the other day, the majority of people there were lawyers, independent businessmen, and insurance agents. Even if they do have a vested or personal interest in teachers as you allude, but haven't managed to prove, that doesn't excuse their support or the status quo.

I’m not getting personal Cato I’m stating facts. People like you who excuse those responsible for shortcomings are as much of the problem as those who are directly responsible for the problem.

Aaron wrote:I’m not getting personal Cato I’m stating facts. People like you who excuse those responsible for shortcomings are as much of the problem as those who are directly responsible for the problem.

First, I don't drag your family or anyone elses into discussions, no matter the situation or topic of discussion. I expect the same. If you can't honor that then there isn't very much to you.

I have never denied the fact many stand opposed to items that would improve the quality of education. All I have ever said is that the legislature caves to their opposition and it is the legislature that bears responsibility for that.

I'm not dragging anyone into anything. You've talked about both you wife and daughter being teachers, they are the motive for your denial and if you can't handle this discussion then tough.

Once again, the legislature is controlled by educators and the union so the onus is back on educators. It's not a difficult.

Aaron wrote:I'm not dragging anyone into anything. You've talked about both you wife and daughter being teachers, they are the motive for your denial and if you can't handle this discussion then tough.

Yeah you are. You really have no argument other than teacher oppose this and that, which I agree with. In fact, I haven't actually figured out why you are arguing. If you weren't so stupid and arrogant you realize we pretty much agree.

Aaron wrote:Once again, the legislature is controlled by educators and the union so the onus is back on educators. It's not a difficult.

Well then I guess you must agree with me that it is the politicians that are ultimately responsible.

I see you're finally coming around to my point of view Cato. As I knew you would. Stick with me and you'll keep learning buddy.

Cato wrote:If you weren't so stupid and arrogant you realize we pretty much agree.

Ah, did I hurt poor wittle Cato's feelings by talking about his wifey and wittle girl so he's got to get on the computer and try and talk tough.

Dude, I don't know what they call stuff like this where you're from but we have a name for it in my neck of the woods. Care to take a guess what it is?

Aaron wrote:I see you're finally coming around to my point of view Cato. As I knew you would. Stick with me and you'll keep learning buddy.

Learn what, that you don't hold those in charge, accountible.

Aaron wrote:Ah, did I hurt poor wittle Cato's feelings by talking about his wifey and wittle girl so he's got to get on the computer and try and talk tough.

Dude, I don't know what they call stuff like this where you're from but we have a name for it in my neck of the woods. Care to take a guess what it is?

No you didn't hurt my feelings. I've come to expect as much. As far as what you call stuff like this, I don't much care.

My stance has been the same since my first post on Jan 26. You're the one running all over the place, crying about administrators and how you wife can't take it anymore, not me.

As you want to lay the blame elsewhere, and keep crying about "vote them out", ask wifey this. If teachers aren't hampering educational reform, why don't THEY elect new union leadership with the task of improving education, not securing jobs? As she's got nothing else to do, tell her to run for a leadership positon and make the changes.