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Market Based Morality?

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Post by ziggy Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:50 pm

Conservatives really want to change the basis of American life, to make America run according to the conservative moral worldview in all areas of life.
In the 2008 campaign, candidate Obama accurately described the basis of American democracy: empathy — citizens caring for each other, both social and personal responsibility — acting on that care, and an ethic of excellence. From these, our freedoms and our way of life follow, as does the role of government: to protect and empower everyone equally. Protection includes safety, health, the environment, pensions. Empowerment starts with education and infrastructure. No one can be free without these, and without a commitment to care and act on that care by one's fellow citizens.
The conservative worldview rejects all of that.
Conservatives believe in individual responsibility alone, not social responsibility. They don't think government should help its citizens. That is, they don't think citizens should help each other. The part of government they want to cut is not the military (we have 174 bases around the world), not government subsidies to corporations, not the aspect of government that fits their worldview. They want to cut the part that helps people. Why? Because that violates individual responsibility.
But where does that view of individual responsibility alone come from?
The way to understand the conservative moral system is to consider a strict father family. The father is The Decider, the ultimate moral authority in the family. His authority must not be challenged. His job is to protect the family, to support the family (by winning competitions in the marketplace), and to teach his kids right from wrong by disciplining them physically when they do wrong. The use of force is necessary and required. Only then will children develop the internal discipline to become moral beings. And only with such discipline will they be able to prosper. And what of people who are not prosperous? They don't have discipline, and without discipline they cannot be moral, so they deserve their poverty. The good people are hence the prosperous people. Helping others takes away their discipline, and hence makes them both unable to prosper on their own and function morally.
The market itself is seen in this way. The slogan, "Let the market decide" assumes the market itself is The Decider. The market is seen as both natural (since it is assumed that people naturally seek their self-interest) and moral (if everyone seeks their own profit, the profit of all will be maximized by the invisible hand). As the ultimate moral authority, there should be no power higher than the market that might go against market values. Thus the government can spend money to protect the market and promote market values, but should not rule over it either through (1) regulation, (2) taxation, (3) unions and worker rights, (4) environmental protection or food safety laws, and (5) tort cases. Moreover, government should not do public service. The market has service industries for that. ........................................

http://www.truth-out.org/what-conservatives-really-want67907

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Post by ohio county Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:32 am

Site off-line
Truthout’s main web site, www.truth-out.org, is temporarily offline. Right now we’re working to resume operations.

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Post by ohio county Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:11 am

George Lakoff is Goldman Distinguished Professor of Cognitive Science and Linguistics at the University of California at Berkeley. He is the author of The California Democracy Act, a grassroots California ballot initiative now organizing public support...

George Lakoff (rhymes with a sex act often performed when one is alone) is one of the "brains" of the New Democrats.

It was from the Whigs that we inherited a sense of discipline and self-control. I'm not sure I agree with the paternalistic view. Definition by one's enemies is rarely flattering and even more rarely accurate. It's funny that Lakoff even mentions the "family" since most of what he supports tends to undermine the traditional family and encourages out-of-wedlock child-bearing and rearing.

It is a fact that men in stable marriages outearn single men or men in unstable and short-lived marriages. Government could better "care" for its citizens by the simple act of promoting stable marriage and discouraging out-of-wedlock child-bearing. Government did this sort of thing successfully in promoting smoking cessation, among other alleged societal ills.

In short, capitalism has lifted far more citizens out of poverty than has empathy. What Lakoff is offering is spreading the misery around. No thanks.

I fully support real charity but dislike confiscatory taxation for the purpose of re-distributing wealth.
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Post by SamCogar Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:27 am

His job is to protect the family, to support the family (by winning competitions in the marketplace), and to teach his kids right from wrong by disciplining them physically when they do wrong. The use of force is necessary and required. Only then will children develop the internal discipline to become moral beings. And only with such discipline will they be able to prosper.

Just look at yourself and those you see or read about, .....


The proof is in the pudding.



Market Based Morality? 197570 Market Based Morality? 197570 Market Based Morality? 197570 Market Based Morality? 197570 Market Based Morality? 197570 Market Based Morality? 197570

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Post by ziggy Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:14 pm

Definition by one's enemies is rarely flattering .................................

Yes, I agree. And I was aware of this when I posted this peice.

.......................... and even more rarely accurate.

Maybe, or maybe not. Either way, we should keep that in mind when conservatives of every make and model seek to re-define liberalism.
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Post by Aaron Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:11 pm

ziggy wrote:we should keep that in mind when conservatives of every make and model seek to re-define liberalism.

So what exactly is it conservatives are redefining?

Is it liberalism?

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom")[1] is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[2] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, capitalism, free trade, and the freedom of religion.[3][4][5][6][7] These ideas are widely accepted, even by political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation. Liberalism encompasses several intellectual trends and traditions, but the dominant variants are classical liberalism, which became popular in the eighteenth century, and social liberalism, which became popular in the twentieth century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Political Liberalism?


Political Liberalism is an update to John Rawls' Theory of Justice (1971) in which he attempts to show that his theory of justice is not a "comprehensive conception of the good", but is instead compatible with a liberal conception of the role of justice: namely, that government should be neutral between competing conceptions of the good. Rawls tries to show that his two principles of justice, properly understood, form a "theory of the right" (as opposed to a theory of the good) which would be supported by all reasonable individuals, even under conditions of reasonable pluralism. The mechanism by which he demonstrates this is called "overlapping consensus".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Liberalism

Economic Liberalism?

Economic liberalism is the economic component of classical liberalism.[1] It is an economic philosophy that supports and promotes laissez-faire economics and private property in the means of production. Proponents of economic liberalism believe political freedom and social freedom are inseparable with economic freedom, and use philosophical arguments promoting liberty to justify economic liberalism and the free market. Although economic liberalism can be supportive of government regulation to a certain degree, it tends to oppose government intervention in the free market that inhibits free trade and competition. Economic liberalism contrasts with mercantilism, the social market model, economic planning, socialism,[2] and fascist economics.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism

Social Liberalism?

Social Liberalism is the belief that liberalism should include social justice. It differs from classical liberalism in that it believes it to be a legitimate role of the state to address economic and social issues such as unemployment, health care, and education while simultaneously expanding civil rights. Under social liberalism, the good of the community is viewed as harmonious with the freedom of the individual.[1] Social liberal policies have been widely adopted in much of the capitalist world, particularly following the Second World War.[2] Social liberal ideas and parties tend to be considered centrist or centre-left.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

Or would it be Modern American Liberalis?

Modern American liberalism is a form of social liberalism developed from progressive ideals such as Theodore Roosevelt's New Nationalism, Woodrow Wilson's New Freedom, Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, John F. Kennedy's New Frontier, and Lyndon Johnson's Great Society. It combines social liberalism and social progressivism with support for a welfare state and a mixed economy. American liberal causes include voting rights for African Americans, abortion rights for women, gay rights and government entitlements such as education and health care.[1]

Keynesian economic theory has played a central role in the economic philosophy of American liberals.[2] The argument has been that national prosperity requires government management of the macroeconomy, to keep unemployment low, inflation in check, and growth high.[2] John F. Kennedy defined a liberal as follows:

“ ...someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people — their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties — someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal', then I’m proud to say I’m a 'Liberal'.[3] ”

Most American liberals support a mixed economy because they fear the extremes of wealth and poverty under unrestrained capitalism; they point to the widespread prosperity enjoyed under a mixed economy in the years since World War II.[4][5] They believe that all citizens are entitled to the basic necessities of life and they champion the protection of the environment.[6][7] Modern American liberalism is typically associated with the Democratic Party.[8]

As of June 2010, 40% of American voters identify themselves as conservatives, 36% as moderates and 22% as liberals.[8] There has been a high level of stability over the last two decades. In 1992 40% of voters called themselves conservative, 35% moderate and 18% liberal[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States

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Post by Aaron Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:31 am

I didn't think it was a hard question but I see the conundrum faced by those who profess by the majority of (particularly West Virginia) Democrats. They are in the same boat Ronald Reagan found himself in when he said he didn't leave the Democratic party, the Democratic party left him.

When the majority of Democrats think of their core values, it is that of the classic liberalist who holds the importance of individual liberties and equal rights. They believe in such things as the Constitution, fair and free elections (this is why Union members by and large oppose card check), capitalism, free trade and freedom of religion.

But that is not who controls the Democratic Party of today. That would be the modern liberalist, the one who believes in government control and the progressiveness of Marxist policies, Keynesian spending policies that result in massive debt and a socialist/mixed economy.

That's not me as a conservatives defining liberalism, that's simply how it is. I know this because if I had to place myself in any catagory, it would be in that of a classic liberalist. Like Ronald Reagan and my father, I didn't leave the Democratic party, they left me. It is why I am now an independent.
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Post by ziggy Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:32 pm

Conservatives really want to change the basis of American life, to make America run according to the conservative moral worldview in all areas of life.

The politicians & media mouthpieces that Lakoff calls conservative are radicals who want a restoration of the economics of the late 19th-century era, a time of misery, powerlessness, & lack of freedom for working Americans and unrestrained power & privilege for the wealthy barons of commerce and industry.
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Post by Aaron Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:04 pm

Mr. Lakoff is expressing his opinion in that he is attempting to redefine all conservatives to fit a very narrow description of his choosing. That is his opinion and he's entitled to it just as those who agree with him are entitled to share it regardless of how inaccurate it is.

What is not inaccruate is Lakoff's desire. He favors Marxist style distribution of wealth measures that take from those who have and give that money to those who do not have it even though they've done nothing to earn said money.

Democrats help radical conservatives by accepting the deficit frame and arguing about what to cut. Even arguing against specific "cuts" is working within the conservative frame. What is the alternative? Pointing out what conservatives really want. Point out that there is plenty of money in America, and in Wisconsin. It is at the top. The disparity in financial assets is un-American - the top one percent has more financial assets than the bottom 95 percent.

So right off the bat, Mr. Lakoff’s credibility is in question. That credibility is furthered questioned when you continue reading and you come upon what he says about contracts.

They help conservatives when they neglect to remind us that pensions are deferred payments for work done. "Benefits" are pay for work, not a handout. Pensions and benefits are arranged by contract.

Considering the extreme left that Mr. Lakoff belongs to was a bit upset over bonus payments made to bankers even though those payments were part of an employment contract further detracts from his credibility.

But then of course, that's my opinion.
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Post by Stephanie Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:25 pm

I always thoroughly enjoy being told what I think, and want, and feel, and believe. I enjoy it most when I'm told these things by those in academia. Somehow, after spending decades in classrooms and/or laboratories, delivering lectures and writing papers, they gain this incredible insight into the mind of those they obviously despise. I find it quite enlightening.

Now, if I thought for just a moment the Distinguished Professor of Mind Control and Bullshit would listen to a mouthy housewife living in rural West by-God! Virginia, I'd tell him to do a little studying of US History. Obviously the man has no knowledge of the history of this nation or he wouldn't be so foolish to include in his litany of lies this whopper:

.....candidate Obama accurately described the basis of American democracy: empathy — citizens caring for each other, both social and personal responsibility — acting on that care, and an ethic of excellence. From these, our freedoms and our way of life follow, as does the role of government: to protect and empower everyone equally. Protection includes safety, health, the environment, pensions. Empowerment starts with education and infrastructure. No one can be free without these, and without a commitment to care and act on that care by one's fellow citizens.
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Post by ohio county Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:48 am

The politicians & media mouthpieces that Lakoff calls conservative are radicals who want a restoration of the economics of the late 19th-century era, a time of misery, powerlessness, & lack of freedom for working Americans and unrestrained power & privilege for the wealthy barons of commerce and industry.

What is your basis for this? Who has specifically called for this?

"Lack of freedom for working Americans..."? Perhaps you never heard of the Berlin Wall? It was not built to keep foreigners out. It was built to keep East Germans in. This is the lasting monument to socialism. This is the symbol of the "caring" and "empathy" you mistakenly seek.

"Oh," you might say, "This time will be different. True socialism was never given a try." Sure it was. Mussolini was a socialist long before he was a fascist. The legacy of socialism is poverty, misery, and failure.
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Post by Stephanie Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:32 am

I wish this forum had a "like" button.
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Post by Aaron Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:41 am

Amen
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Post by SheikBen Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:21 pm

ziggy wrote:
Conservatives really want to change the basis of American life, to make America run according to the conservative moral worldview in all areas of life.

The politicians & media mouthpieces that Lakoff calls conservative are radicals who want a restoration of the economics of the late 19th-century era, a time of misery, powerlessness, & lack of freedom for working Americans and unrestrained power & privilege for the wealthy barons of commerce and industry.

I don't doubt that the late 1800s were years of misery and powerlessness. I am also quite sure that conservatives are not trying to go back there.

Rather, conservatives appear to be concerned that the government is involved in artificial social engineering, and of the kind that leads to disaster rather than utopia. "The poor you will have with you always" says Jesus, and I believe Him. We can and should feed them. The government, unfortunately, wastes millions of dollars in the name of such care. If Ziggy and any others on the left wish to help the poor they may do so, and we all should. However, instead the government wastes millions of dollars on red tape and government workers in the name of the "poor," such that when you criticize waste and demand better accountability and efficiency, you are then castigated as being against the "poor."

The EITC comes from the Republican idea of the negative income tax. I don't see conservatives as unfeeling, but rather somewhat intolerant of the government wasting their money without their consent. Planned Parenthood is another example. Liberals are screaming bloody murder about the desire to strip them of their federal funds, but any number of them can donate to Planned Parenthood at any time.

Liberalism has, unfortunately, become the ideology of busybodies. Feeding the hungry is a good thing; having the government feed themselves in the name of feeding the hungry is not, and having the government take your money against your will, in the name of feeding the hungry, while feeding themselves, is surely evil. Mr Lakoff knows this, which is why he is framing the debate in the way that he is. I've seen it done in person. Any time cutting spending is suggested, those that waste federal dollars begin to call names.

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Post by ohio county Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:02 pm

http://talkingpoints.wordpress.com/2006/12/01/conservative-vs-liberal-charity-donations/

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/charitable_giving_liberals_vs_conservatives/

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/conservatives_more_liberal_giv.html

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2006/11/22/it-turns-out-conservatives-really-are-compassionate/

http://newsbusters.org/node/9323

http://www.baruch.cuny.edu/spa/researchcenters/nonprofitstrategy/documents/EgerMcDonald_ReligiousAttitudesandCharitableDonations.pdf
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Post by ziggy Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:27 am

The politicians & media mouthpieces that Lakoff calls conservative are radicals who want a restoration of the economics of the late 19th-century era, a time of misery, powerlessness, & lack of freedom for working Americans and unrestrained power & privilege for the wealthy barons of commerce and industry.

What is your basis for this? Who has specifically called for this?

"Lack of freedom for working Americans..."? Perhaps you never heard of the Berlin Wall? It was not built to keep foreigners out. It was built to keep East Germans in. This is the lasting monument to socialism. This is the symbol of the "caring" and "empathy" you mistakenly seek.

"Oh," you might say, "This time will be different. True socialism was never given a try." Sure it was. Mussolini was a socialist long before he was a fascist. The legacy of socialism is poverty, misery, and failure.

I don't know what "true socialism" is, or what it might be, OC. If you say that Mussolini was a socialist, I'll take your word for it- because I believe you are a mostly honest and reasonably informed person. My only reservation about your honesty is your penchant for misrepresenting that which I advocate- because you incorrectly assert or suggest that I advocate for that which I don't- unless you also suggest that the USA as it has existed for about the past 75 years somehow represents "true socialism". I don't expect any better from the babbling baffons of personal snarkery like Aaron or Cato; but I do of you.

I don't know what the Berlin Wall has to do with Wisconsin statehouse antics today, or with other 21st century Republican efforts to neuter labor unions and to further increase the wealth and political power of corporations over that of real people in lieu of maintaining more or less the American economic equilibrum of most of the last half of the 20th century- the most overall economically successful era of any state or nation in economic history.

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Post by Aaron Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:34 am

I'm curious Ziggy as to why you can't answer a simple question. What brand of liberalism are conservatives attempting to redefine?

And while you're at it, why don't you see if you can answer this one. How does neutering labor unions of public employees empower corporations considering it's not corporate profits public union workers are taking money from, it is honest, hardworking tax payers, the ones who have no voice at the table during negotiations.

Do you think you can stop chasing your tail long enough to anser simple questions or is (per the norm) word games and the thoughts of others all you have?

Independent thought, really, you should give it a try. It's awesome.

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Post by ziggy Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:23 pm

And while you're at it, why don't you see if you can answer this one. How does neutering labor unions of public employees empower corporations considering it's not corporate profits public union workers are taking money from, it is honest, hardworking tax payers, the ones who have no voice at the table during negotiations.

So corporations are not honest, hardworking taxpayers?
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Post by Stephanie Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:40 pm

I'd like to see your answer to Aaron's question.
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Post by ziggy Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:57 pm

Aaron's question is predicated on the supposition that corporations are not among "honest, hardworking tax payers". In March of 1990, then WV governor Caperton proposed a few pennies of tax on each ton of coal mined and marketed in WV to pay for a pay increase for WV school teachers. It was coal corporation executives and their swarms of lobbysits, and not what Aaron asserts are "honest, hardworking taxpayers" who decended on Charleston to browbeat the legislature and the governor into abandoning that mechanism to fund a teacher pay increase.

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Post by ohio county Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:17 pm

If I understand Aaron correctly he is asking you what the public-sector unions in Wisconsin have to do with avaricious corporations. I am loath to speak for him because he does pretty well for himself.

I believe that your concern with corporations borders on obsession. Corporations are neither good nor evil. Any good corporate officer will tell you that his primary function is to increase the wealth of the stockholders. And who are these superrich stockholders? Sometimes they are blue-haired little old ladies who might wear tennis shoes. Sometimes they are union pension funds. Sometimes they are investors in 401k accounts planning for their retirements. Sometimes they are institutional investors and sometimes they are individuals. When the investors invest dollars the evil corporations are truly color-blind and unbiased. They see only dollars and not interest groups or races or religions.

Are corporations greedy? No, they gauge their success or failure on net returns or returns on capital investments. Cash is simply how they keep score. Are executives over-compensated? Well, isn't that a question for the stockholders to answer? Why would we concern ourselves with that question if we are not stockholders in that corporation?

Friedrich A. von Hayek showed in his Nobel Prize winning work, The Road to Serfdom, that the amount of central planning in a state's economy has an equal and opposite reaction in the level of individual liberties of the citizens of that state. And this in the days when they held the quaint conceit that one had to produce the work before winning the prize.

To proselytize for socialism is to ignore one hundred fifty years of history. That socialism is all the rage now on the Continent and the East Coast notwithstanding, there has never been a purely socialist state whose citizens would freely vote to maintain it.

Finally, and at long last, what does the dust-up in Wisconsin have to do with corporations?

Thank you for the kind words. I have nothing but respect for you and believe you are exactly what you say you are. I certainly do not bear you any malice or disrespect.
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Post by Aaron Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:49 pm

Bravo Jimmy, Bravo. That's a bottom of the 9th GRAND SLAM.

Market Based Morality? 12concert_9217
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Post by Aaron Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:54 pm

That's about what I expected from you Ziggy.

Market Based Morality? Tail%2520chaser%2520D%2520Mills)

So in addition to two legitimate questions I've ask, why don't you try addressing the points OC made.

Or keep chasing your tail...it's totally up to you.
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Post by ohio county Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:43 pm

I don't know. We sat and talked to Ziggy and the Cameron Diaz look-alike Mrs. Ziggy. We don't really gain anything by chasing him off. And I ask you: where did Ziggy allow that he was talking about socialism? He didn't. We're sort of talking past each other.

It's sort of like I'm waiting here for Ziggy to answer and I'm all stressed because what I want to post is more germane and involves me more. I pride myself on my listening abilities but I'm not really listening to what he's saying.

I think that liberals mean that they are more charitable because they want to lift the poor out of poverty. They want to give the sick good health. They want to do right by people who have less than they do.

Isn't our bone of contention whether or not the government is the right venue to do those things? Maybe it is. I think that those who want to use the government to provide charity think that absolves them of their personal responsibility to be charitable. Look, for instance, at Joe Biden's personal income tax returns. Look at Al Gore's personal income tax returns. Obama's, conversely, are pretty darn generous...

Maybe this thread isn't about socialism. Maybe it's about our society's need to care for the weakest among us. I don't have a problem talking about that.

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Post by Aaron Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:27 pm

I'm not trying to run Ziggy off OC. I simply ask him a question. I've just tired of playing his word games and of his dishonesty and when you combine that with my inability at political correctness, well, I know I come off as overbearing but that's who I am. I can live with that.

Besides, he's not hiding because of me, he's hiding because he has no answer for your comments. He has something with which he would like to respond to your comments but he knows that when he does, you will bring to light how wrong he is.

He's like a boxer who keeps trying different combinations but with each one, his offenses is not only defended but then countered and he is the one getting the snot beat out of him. You're the one he's scared of Jimmy, not me. It's your verbal beating that keeps him away, not my taunts.
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