WV Forum for News, Politics, and Sports
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Market Based Morality?

+2
ohio county
ziggy
6 posters

Page 4 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by Aaron Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:04 pm

ziggy wrote:
ohio county wrote:
And so what do you conclude as relates to the question of what corporations have to do with the "kerfluffle" there? Are corporations not among the taxpayers that Governor Walker complains cannot afford the collective bargaining agreements with public employee unions?

Yes, corporations pay taxes and are, therefore taxpayers. You said that corporations want to strictly control public employee pay rates. That isn't true.

I don't think I have said that, OC. But if you can show us that I have, then please do.

Yes it is. Others may believe you simply forgot. I know it's more of your dishonestly.

ziggy wrote:That could be. Does that make such an "obsession" irrelevant? I believe that corporations' are obsessed with having their bidders control virtually all of government- including the salaries, wages and other benefits of public employees.

Now try to weasle out of that, if you can.
Aaron
Aaron

Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by Aaron Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:11 pm

In searching for that post, I found it as part of one that contained the following statement as well.

ziggy wrote:Aaron is asking me to accept his premise that corporations are not "taxpayers". If corporations are not taxpayers, why do corporations focus so much and spend so much on lobbying to have taxes not increase and/or be lower?


What is ironic is that after you posted this tripe, you claimed OC was putting words in his mouth and ask him not to do it.

That was not my premise. You stated that Walker was trying to "neuter" labor unions to empower corporations and I ask how. You still haven't answered, just as you haven't answered the question regarding which form of liberalism conservatives were trying to define liberasl by.

Some might think your running from so many legitimate questions makes you a coward.

You may count me among that crowd.
Aaron
Aaron

Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ziggy Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:08 pm

Aaron wrote:
ziggy wrote:
ohio county wrote:
And so what do you conclude as relates to the question of what corporations have to do with the "kerfluffle" there? Are corporations not among the taxpayers that Governor Walker complains cannot afford the collective bargaining agreements with public employee unions?

Yes, corporations pay taxes and are, therefore taxpayers. You said that corporations want to strictly control public employee pay rates. That isn't true.

I don't think I have said that, OC. But if you can show us that I have, then please do.

Yes it is. Others may believe you simply forgot. I know it's more of your dishonestly.

ziggy wrote:That could be. Does that make such an "obsession" irrelevant? I believe that corporations' are obsessed with having their bidders control virtually all of government- including the salaries, wages and other benefits of public employees.

Now try to weasle out of that, if you can.

Like the blind squirrell, you finally found an acorn, Aaron. Yep, I said it. So why would I try to weasel out of it?
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ziggy Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:11 pm

ziggy wrote:
ohio county wrote:
And so what do you conclude as relates to the question of what corporations have to do with the "kerfluffle" there? Are corporations not among the taxpayers that Governor Walker complains cannot afford the collective bargaining agreements with public employee unions?

Yes, corporations pay taxes and are, therefore taxpayers. You said that corporations want to strictly control public employee pay rates. That isn't true.

I don't think I have said that, OC. But if you can show us that I have, then please do.

I apologize, OC. You are correct. I had forgotten about typing that. That is what I said. But I don't think I can defend it as true. I got carried away. Me bad.
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by Aaron Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:33 pm

ziggy wrote:
Aaron wrote:
ziggy wrote:
ohio county wrote:
And so what do you conclude as relates to the question of what corporations have to do with the "kerfluffle" there? Are corporations not among the taxpayers that Governor Walker complains cannot afford the collective bargaining agreements with public employee unions?

Yes, corporations pay taxes and are, therefore taxpayers. You said that corporations want to strictly control public employee pay rates. That isn't true.

I don't think I have said that, OC. But if you can show us that I have, then please do.

Yes it is. Others may believe you simply forgot. I know it's more of your dishonestly.

ziggy wrote:That could be. Does that make such an "obsession" irrelevant? I believe that corporations' are obsessed with having their bidders control virtually all of government- including the salaries, wages and other benefits of public employees.

Now try to weasle out of that, if you can.

Like the blind squirrell, you finally found an acorn, Aaron. Yep, I said it. So why would I try to weasel out of it?

Because that's how you roll. Look at all the other legitimate questions you're running scared from on this thread alone.

I would seriously love for you to address my first one in which brand of liberalism conservatives are redefining. The way I see it, my fathers Democrat which is FDR's democrat has been replaced by something that neither would be very happy with and I wonder how one of the new age liberals who have more in common with Karl Marx then FDR thinks of this.
Aaron
Aaron

Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by Stephanie Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:30 pm

ziggy wrote:
He'll have no choice because 14 Democrats, encouraged and emboldened by union fat cats, decided to make the decision for him.

Or is it because public agency managers negotiated labor contracts that, if we believe Walker, that the government and the taxpayers could not afford?

I saw Governor Walker on Meet the Press this morning. That liberal hack, Gregory, he pressed Walker hard on the issue of why Walker refuses to just accept the concessions already made and why Walker was "playing favorites" by not including police, fire etc in limiting collective bargaining rights to wages. What Walker said is that throughout this process unions and local governments have negotiated contracts that do not include contributions to health insurance and retirement benefits. Walker claims, and rightfully so it would appear, that as long as public employee unions have the ability to negotiate benefits negotiators will continue to sign unaffordable contracts. That is reality.
Stephanie
Stephanie
Admin

Number of posts : 6556
Age : 60
Location : West Virginia
Registration date : 2007-12-28

https://gazzfriends.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ziggy Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:29 pm

That liberal hack, Gregory, he pressed Walker hard on the issue of why Walker refuses to just accept the concessions already made and why Walker was "playing favorites" by not including police, fire etc in limiting collective bargaining rights to wages.

And what did Walker say about why police and firefighters' unions were not included?
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by Stephanie Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:38 pm

I'm going to paraphrase here, not a precise quote:

"Thousands of public school teachers failed to report to work and closed public schools and it was an inconvenience. I would not risk having firemen call out and a home burn. I would not risk having police fail to report to work and crimes occur."
Stephanie
Stephanie
Admin

Number of posts : 6556
Age : 60
Location : West Virginia
Registration date : 2007-12-28

https://gazzfriends.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by Aaron Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:59 pm

Stephanie wrote:I'm going to paraphrase here, not a precise quote:

"Thousands of public school teachers failed to report to work and closed public schools and it was an inconvenience. I would not risk having firemen call out and a home burn. I would not risk having police fail to report to work and crimes occur."

That is exactly why FDR, the man who signed the National Labor Relations (Wagnor) Act, opposed extending collective bargaining rights to public employeess. Roosevelt felt like keeping the government running and not subjecting it to the potential for being held hostage far outweighted public employees right to bargain and potentially strike if they didn't get what they wanted. It seems that at one point in time, liberals has some sense.


What happened?
Aaron
Aaron

Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ziggy Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:53 pm

ohio county wrote:But this: "...control virtually all of government- including the salaries, wages and other benefits of public employees..." bothers me immensely.

And this bothers me perhaps equally immensly:

ohio county wrote:I believe that your concern with corporations borders on obsession. Corporations are neither good nor evil.

It seems to me that to say that "corporations are neither good not evil" is comparable to saying that church charities, or labor unions, or 4-H Clubs, or Chapters of the Ku Klux Klan, or food pantries are neither good nor evil. I posit that all these associations are either as good or evil as their activities attest- no more, and no less. What am I missing?
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by Aaron Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:29 pm

Apparently a lot. None of the above associations possess any type of feelings, actions or any other qualities. They are no better or worse then the collective group of people who are associated with them. Honestly, I don't know what about that is so hard to understand.
Aaron
Aaron

Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ohio county Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:20 pm

I posit that all these associations are either as good or evil as their activities attest- no more, and no less. What am I missing?

Okay. While we're doing mea culpas, most of what Enron and Arthur Andersen did was evil. All Arthur Andersen had was their reputation and it was the gold standard and they peed it away. I had neighbors with twin sons. They were nearly ten years older than me and I didn't know them well. But I'll never forget that Ronnie and Donnie worked for Arthur Andersen and they were considered "fixed for life". That is, they were at the acme of accounting success and could not have done better. With one client, Arthur Andersen disappeared. In real terms the equivalent is that the earth opened and ate them. It couldn't happen. They're well beyond retirement age now and they were good boys. I hope they made out okay. I doubt it...

There are evil players who are associated with corporations. I've seen them up close and personal. I'm still not convinced that corporations are inherently evil.
ohio county
ohio county
Moderator

Number of posts : 3207
Location : Wheeling
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ohio county Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:21 pm

What am I missing?

Balance. Judgment.
ohio county
ohio county
Moderator

Number of posts : 3207
Location : Wheeling
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ziggy Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:25 pm

ohio county wrote:
What am I missing?

Balance. Judgment.

OK. I can agree with that. I long for more of both.
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ohio county Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:28 pm

That doesn't make you a bad person. And who am I to say? I have to admit I must re-examine based on some of your suggestions...
ohio county
ohio county
Moderator

Number of posts : 3207
Location : Wheeling
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ziggy Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:31 pm

ohio county wrote:There are evil players who are associated with corporations. I've seen them up close and personal. I'm still not convinced that corporations are inherently evil.

I agree. They are not inherently evil. And if you were to suggest that labor unions are not all inherently good, I would agree with that too. I don't think we are nearly as far apart as our respective words sometimes cause to appear.
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ohio county Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:45 pm

Labor unions both private-sector and public-sector are deeply flawed. Yet private-sector unions have gained a great deal of concessions in safety and working conditions from which all workers have benefited. Police unions and firemen unions have gained for their members some safety concessions that we should all applaud.

We must never allow public-sector unions to leverage pensions that cause states to seek bankruptcy protection or require taxpayers to pay more for the services they receive without opening those services up to private providers.
ohio county
ohio county
Moderator

Number of posts : 3207
Location : Wheeling
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ohio county Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:50 pm

A nice essay about Wisconsin.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/02/democrats-wage-populist-fight-against-their-allies
ohio county
ohio county
Moderator

Number of posts : 3207
Location : Wheeling
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by ziggy Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:01 pm

Union-funded lawmakers take money from taxpayers and give it the government unions, who kick some of it back to union-funded lawmakers. It's not too different from banks or defense contractors donating to politicians who bail them out or give them no-bid contracts.

I think I might drink to that- especially as it's just about that time of the evening anyway.
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

Market Based Morality? - Page 4 Empty Re: Market Based Morality?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 4 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum