Federal Judge Prohibits Prayer at Texas Graduation Ceremony

Federal Judge Prohibits Prayer at Texas Graduation Ceremony
By Todd Starnes

A federal judge has ordered a Texas school district to prohibit public prayer at a high school graduation ceremony.

Chief U.S. District Judge Fred Biery’s order against the Medina Valley Independent School District also forbids students from using specific religious words including “prayer” and “amen.”

The ruling was in response to a lawsuit filed by Christa and Danny Schultz. Their son is among those scheduled to participate in Saturday’s graduation ceremony. The judge declared that the Schultz family and their son would “suffer irreparable harm” if anyone prayed at the ceremony.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/02/prayer-prohibited-at-graduation-ceremony/#ixzz1OCfJR5WZ

Keli wrote: ...
The judge declared that the Schultz family and their son would “ suffer irreparable harm” if anyone prayed at the ceremony.

I'm curious, would either of you have a problem with a Jewish prayer after the Christian prayer? How about a Muslim prayer? Or a Wiccian prayer? Or any number of other religious prayers?

Aaron wrote:I'm curious, would either of you have a problem with a Jewish prayer after the Christian prayer? How about a Muslim prayer? Or a Wiccian prayer? Or any number of other religious prayers?

I don't much give a damn what a person says or does anymore. If a Jew gets up to speak and decides to have a prayer, Let them. I am certainly not being hurt by what they say. I certainly have no right to shut them up. The same for a Muslim, Buddist, Wiccan, or if atheist uses this time to say there is no God. They have the right to say what they will, I'm not forced to pray or participate, nor is anyone else.

If it happens at a graduation and you have a child who is part of the class then you are forced to participate. I'm sorry that you cannot comprehend that but that is a fact. If you want to pray, go to church as a public high school graduation ceremony is simply not the place.

Aaron I always hear that as an argument, and everytime I refute it by saying about what Cato did, I never hear more.

If I were up on the liberal North Side of Chicago and some doofus mentioned Barack Obama in the valediction, I would not suffer "irreparable harm." Why does Obama fall under freedom of speech but not Jesus Christ?

There are a thousand things, perhaps, on that which I disagree with any given graduation speaker. I am uncomfortable saying the Pledge of Allegiance for religious reasons, but I can just simply not say it, stand politely (which I do), and move on with my life, than try to tell the rest of the world how they should behave.

It's not about "irreparable harm" for me, it is about what is right. Last year, I walked out of my son’s graduation after 7 minutes of an "invocation" by a student who among other things told the entire audience that if they did not accept God they would spend eternity in hell. It was not the place for that type of prayer and you know as well as I do that if a Muslim requested equal time, he would not get it but on the off chance he did, if he said convert or perish, all hell would break loose.

Until equal time is afforded to any and all who want it, as both students and parents are forced to participate in a Christian prayer, a PUBLIC graduation is not the proper venue for such actions.

Besides, didn't a great man once say "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." That being the case, why do mortal men feel the need for public displays of faith?

SheikBen wrote:Why does Obama fall under freedom of speech but not Jesus Christ?

There's a huge difference between freedom of speech and talking about someone and praying too a God. Say what you will but if an official or student at a graduation required all to stand and led the entire audiance in prayer to Barrack Obama, all hell would most definately break loose.

And I think you know this Mike.

You weren't forced, you left, but do you think that individual should have gone to jail?

People can be long winded and insensitive, no doubt, and you exercised your rights no differently than the speaker did his.

So do you mean to say that I can talk about Jesus but not to Him?

SheikBen wrote:You weren't forced, you left, but do you think that individual should have gone to jail?

People can be long winded and insensitive, no doubt, and you exercised your rights no differently than the speaker did his.

No, the student was not exercising his rights. The 1st Amendment, while giving the right of freedom of religion also prevents the establishment of religion by the government. The 14th Amendment under the due process clause codifies the Bill of Rights to the States meaning they cannot impose an establishment of religion.

The Supreme Court has historically stated that allowing such prayer in these types of venues does in deed establish a religion so the young man was actually in violation of the law. And while I don't believe he should have went to jail for his actions, I do believe the principal should have been punished for allowing it to happen. And given that this is Poca, the school with a steeple, he like should have been fired years ago.

As for my actions, it was either leave or rise and interupt the proceedings with my objections so yes, I was forced to leave. The prayer was not only illegal, it was inappropiate and detracted from a PUBLIC event funded by PUBLIC dollars.

SheikBen wrote:So do you mean to say that I can talk about Jesus but not to Him?

In a sense yes but understand that when you are referencing his teachings, they are very similar to the teachings of Buddha, Muhammad and other religious leaders.

Of course there is a huge difference in reference Jesus in a speech and in centering a speech specifically on Jesus in the form of a sermon.

After all, if a student or teacher were to center a speech or lead a group of students in song specifically praising Barrack Obama, would that not result in outrage from the right?

And I can't help but note that you didn't address the comment regarding prayer in a closet. It seems to me that regarding the subject of public prayer, the New Testament and teachings of Jesus lie on my side of the argument in that a public place is not the proper venue. Or am I wrong in what Jesus Christ said? Does he in fact require public displays of faith as you, keli and Cato assert?

It was not the place for that type of prayer

Fer shame, that some don't know difference between a prayer and a preaching.

Aaron wrote:If it happens at a graduation and you have a child who is part of the class then you are forced to participate. I'm sorry that you cannot comprehend that but that is a fact. If you want to pray, go to church as a public high school graduation ceremony is simply not the place.

That arguement is simply bullcrap. Not one person is holding a gun to your head and making you pray along. Additionally, if the kid or anyone for that matter wants to give God the credit for thier success in school they have a right to. Afterall the first amendment also protects speech, even speach you happen to disagree with.

Aaron wrote: No, the student was not exercising his rights. The 1st Amendment, while giving the right of freedom of religion also prevents the establishment of religion by the government. The 14th Amendment under the due process clause codifies the Bill of Rights to the States meaning they cannot impose an establishment of religion.

If you are going to say that, then I suggest all speech about any god no matter what held on public property amounts to the government establishing religion. Then Congress is in violation of the US Constitution when they open with prayer. Additionally, all churches on government property , like military bases is in breech of the 1st amendment. Additionally, you are also saying that the establishment clause of the first amendment takes preference over free speech.

The Supreme Court disagrees with you Cato. Likely because you are wrong as he wasn't "giving credit", he was praying which given the circumstances is state sponsored religion. That's a no-no.

The Court rejected the defendant's arguments that people are not asked to respect any specific established religion; and that the prayer is voluntary. The Court held that the mere promotion of a religion is sufficient to establish a violation, even if that promotion is not coercive. The Court further held that the fact that the prayer is vaguely worded enough not to promote any particular religion is not a sufficient defense, as it still promotes a family of religions (those that recognize "Almighty God"), which still violates the Establishment Clause.

source

Later decisions included the ban of student-led prayer. I am curious though as you claim to be a Christian, do you not see how your stance is contradicted by the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Aaron wrote:I'm curious, would either of you have a problem with a Jewish prayer after the Christian prayer? How about a Muslim prayer? Or a Wiccian prayer? Or any number of other religious prayers?

Would reading the Declaration of Independence--with its reference to the Creator--do irreparable harm to an atheist hearer? Is that what happened to Sam Cogar?

Would me coming into your church and reading from the Koran do irreparable harm? And it's not like you're forced to listen. After all, you can get up and walk out, right!!!

And why don't any of you address the teachings of Jesus Christ? Does he NEED for you to say your prayers in public? Will he suffer irreparable harm if Christians are not allow to publically profess their love for him? Can he no longer hear the prayers from the closet?

Or could it be that this is less about the teachings of Christ and more about your desire to impose your views on others?

Keli wrote:Would reading the Declaration of Independence--with its reference to the Creator--do irreparable harm to an atheist hearer? Is that what happened to Sam Cogar?

YES, .... YES, ..... that was it, ..... it's all coming back to me, .... I'se member now.



but



buut


bu-bu-but now youse done ga-ga-got mes really cu-cu-curious,


I'se wunder what irreparable harmy thingy t'was being read out loud by someone dat Aaron was forced to listen too?

SamCogar wrote:
I'se wunder what irreparable harmy thingy t'was being read out loud by someone dat Aaron was forced to listen too?

I don't know what it was that did so much irreparable harm to Aaron...but, I will pray for him.

We are atheist/agnostics in this family. Kate's hs graduation was held at some Baptist Church "hall" in Teays Valley. It was simply dreadful, but Katie handled it like a champ. There was a whole lot of praying, all in Jesus' name of course.

I promise you laws were broken. She now attends a private college run by the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). Religion plays less of a role in both daily life and important ceremonies than it did at BHS.

Keli wrote:

SamCogar wrote:
I'se wunder what irreparable harmy thingy t'was being read out loud by someone dat Aaron was forced to listen too?

I don't know what it was that did so much irreparable harm to Aaron...but, I will pray for him.

Thank you Kelli, I appreciate your prayer as I am a firm believer. Just do it as Jesus ask, in a humble way in private.

Aaron wrote:Would me coming into your church and reading from the Koran do irreparable harm? And it's not like you're forced to listen. After all, you can get up and walk out, right!!!

That's true, additionally you can be asked to leave

Aaron wrote:And why don't any of you address the teachings of Jesus Christ? Does he NEED for you to say your prayers in public? Will he suffer irreparable harm if Christians are not allow to publically profess their love for him? Can he no longer hear the prayers from the closet?

Jesus also said if you deny me before men, I'll deny you before my father. He also said if you love family or friends more than me you are not worthy of me. While i can't speak for Keli, I 'll pray where I please, when I please. If I am speaking and decide to pray during that speach I will whether you or anyone else happen like it or not. No one is forcing you to pray and certainly you have the right to tune me out, just as I have that right when someone gets up to deny Christ's existance

Aaron wrote:Or could it be that this is less about the teachings of Christ and more about your desire to impose your views on others?

I have wondered the exact samething about you.

Aaron wrote:The Supreme Court disagrees with you Cato. Likely because you are wrong as he wasn't "giving credit", he was praying which given the circumstances is state sponsored religion. That's a no-no.

Who said the supreme court was right in their ruling?. Afterall they are human and thus subject to bias. It is funny how for about 180 years it was alright to pray in public places and then all of a sudden it isn't.

Aaron wrote:Later decisions included the ban of student-led prayer. I am curious though as you claim to be a Christian, do you not see how your stance is contradicted by the teachings of Jesus Christ?

I am curious, how am I contradicting the teachings of Jesus?

Cato wrote:

Aaron wrote:Would me coming into your church and reading from the Koran do irreparable harm? And it's not like you're forced to listen. After all, you can get up and walk out, right!!!

That's true, additionally you can be asked to leave

Why would I be ask to leave? I'm not causing irreparable harm to anyone?

Cato wrote:

Aaron wrote:And why don't any of you address the teachings of Jesus Christ? Does he NEED for you to say your prayers in public? Will he suffer irreparable harm if Christians are not allow to publically profess their love for him? Can he no longer hear the prayers from the closet?

Jesus also said if you deny me before men, I'll deny you before my father. He also said if you love family or friends more than me you are not worthy of me. While i can't speak for Keli, I 'll pray where I please, when I please. If I am speaking and decide to pray during that speach I will whether you or anyone else happen like it or not. No one is forcing you to pray and certainly you have the right to tune me out, just as I have that right when someone gets up to deny Christ's existance

And I knew that is exactly where you would go. Only someone who is truly desparate would equate not saying a public prayer, especially given that Jesus admonished public prayers as denying Jesus. Keep grasping at those straws man.

Cato wrote:

Aaron wrote:Or could it be that this is less about the teachings of Christ and more about your desire to impose your views on others?

I have wondered the exact samething about you.

I share Jesus' view so the view I am imposing is his. Is HE wrong?

Aaron wrote:

Cato wrote:

Aaron wrote:Would me coming into your church and reading from the Koran do irreparable harm? And it's not like you're forced to listen. After all, you can get up and walk out, right!!!

That's true, additionally you can be asked to leave

Why would I be ask to leave? I'm not causing irreparable harm to anyone?

That's right you are not, but you are on private property and they have a right to associate with whom the please.

Cato wrote:

Aaron wrote:And why don't any of you address the teachings of Jesus Christ? Does he NEED for you to say your prayers in public? Will he suffer irreparable harm if Christians are not allow to publically profess their love for him? Can he no longer hear the prayers from the closet?

Jesus also said if you deny me before men, I'll deny you before my father. He also said if you love family or friends more than me you are not worthy of me. While i can't speak for Keli, I 'll pray where I please, when I please. If I am speaking and decide to pray during that speach I will whether you or anyone else happen like it or not. No one is forcing you to pray and certainly you have the right to tune me out, just as I have that right when someone gets up to deny Christ's existance

And I knew that is exactly where you would go. Only someone who is truly desparate would equate not saying a public prayer, especially given that Jesus admonished public prayers as denying Jesus. Keep grasping at those straws man.[/quote]

That is not grasping at straws. Is it not also a command that Jesus gave his followers? You can't pick and choose which commands you'll abd the one's you won't.

Cato wrote:

Aaron wrote:Or could it be that this is less about the teachings of Christ and more about your desire to impose your views on others?

I have wondered the exact samething about you.

I share Jesus' view so the view I am imposing is his. Is HE wrong?



[/quote]

What view do you share? As I said, you cannot pick and choose what commands you want to follow. So why don't you show me where he stated that should not pray to him in public if they so desire.

It appears to me, you want to strip me of the very rights you are accussing me of taking from you. The fact of the matter is, I haven't interferred with your rights nor have I breeched them. However, you certainly want to strip me of my right to free speech.