Is the VSC Commission a bunch of Greenies?

No electricity is not an option

Some way must be found to build the next generation of coal plant

AS a new coal-fired power plant in West Virginia rises in Morgantown, it is looking as if it may be another 15 years before another one is built.

That would be a sorry situation, because limiting the supply of electricity will not limit demand for electricity.

And as Americans have learned at the gasoline pumps, when demand exceeds supply, prices rise - rapidly and steeply.

American Electric Power wants to build a coal-fired power plant in New Haven, W.Va., to serve 500,000 customers in West Virginia and 500,000 customers in Virginia. The cost is estimated at $2.23 billion.

Unfortunately, regulators in Virginia have not been as responsible about providing a reliable energy supply.

The Virginia State Corporation Commission turned down a request to have Virginia customers share the cost of building the plant.

Such a plant "represents an extraordinary risk" to Virginia customers, it said. Last week, the commission turned down AEP's request for an appeal.

It is difficult to understand the commission's logic. How would increasing the supply of cleaner, coal-fired electricity harm customers - including business prospects - who are demanding more power?

AEP officials have placed the project on hold.

http://www.dailymail.com/Opinion/Editorials/200806020142

OOPS, ...... the Greenies did it again.

Now why do you suppose Ziggy .... unrelentlessly CONTINUES to try to convince everyone that the Greenies are not at fault .... for all the things they are the fault of?

It must be "lonelyness". ...... a driving emotional force that will make some people do most anything.


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Yeah, the "Greenies" are running wild in the offices of the Virginia state Corporations Commissions and at the WV Public Service Commission, and at the WV Department of Environmental Protection.

Sure they are. Sure they are.

Why is the VCC turning this down Frank? Perhaps you can enlighten the less imformed why this project, which will replace at least 2 coal fired plants and reduce overall carbon emissions, can't get built.

This plant is met the approval of several environmental groups including a fomer higher up of the Sierra Club. I can't remember the gentleman's name but he gave this plant his approval because it is not actually burning coal for electricity, but converting to a liquid form and then burning that for energy.

Ziggy,

I find it impossible to believe environmentalists did not play a major role in this latest outrage.

I'm becoming impatient with them, as a group. I want cleaner, more affordable energy. I realize many environmentalists don't concern themselves too much with the affordable part of the equation, but the ability of citizens to pay for this cleaner energy is vital. But I digress.

What I can't understand is the why of it all. Why block progress. Why not assist in cleaner coal, rather than stand it its path. We have the technology to create energy from coal in a much cleaner method than the past while keeping it affordable. This is what we have to work with now and so we should work with it.

It's like all the environmentalists fighting wind farms because of bats and birds and the obstruction of their view. Accomodations can be made for the birds and the bats by using radar or sonar to detect incoming flocks and shut her down in conjunction with a cage or barrier etc. It's never good enough.

Environmental extremism is going to drive this nation to her knees. They object to wind farms, coal, tapping the natural gas and oil reserves in Alaska, off shore drilling, nuclear power, and we can't dam anything up for hydro power. It's lunacy.

So I've run out of patience. Human beings need to live too. We are not less important than bears or birds or fish or bugs. This new plant was a step in the right direction.

Aaron wrote:Why is the VCC turning this down Frank?

I do not know. I have not read their ruling, nor otherwise kept up with that case.

Perhaps you can enlighten the less imformed why this project, which will replace at least 2 coal fired plants and reduce overall carbon emissions, can't get built.

I have not worked against this project, nor have I spoken against it- neither here nor anywhere else. And I have rejected requests to become involved in working against this specific power plant- and a similar one across the river in Meigs County. I neither strongly oppose it nor strongly support it. So you would need to ask someone else for an answer about that.

I have only said that all the "clean coal" technology, about which I know little, that can be put into this proposed new power plant does nothing to address the corruption of the legal processes of strip mining for coal, nor to address the human and other environmental miseries associated with strip mining for coal- which is something I do know about.

Stephanie wrote:Ziggy,

I find it impossible to believe environmentalists did not play a major role in this latest outrage.

I'm becoming impatient with them, as a group.

Environmentalists are not "a group", Stephanie- any more than all churches are a "group". There are many groups and many indivuduals- many with different perspectives and different agendas.

What I can't understand is the why of it all. Why block progress. Why not assist in cleaner coal, rather than stand it its path. We have the technology to create energy from coal in a much cleaner method than the past while keeping it affordable. This is what we have to work with now and so we should work with it.

And what about how we mine that coal? Why block progress there?

It's like all the environmentalists fighting wind farms because of bats and birds and the obstruction of their view.

"All the environmentalists" are not fighting wind farms.

Environmental extremism is going to drive this nation to her knees. They object to wind farms, coal, tapping the natural gas and oil reserves in Alaska, off shore drilling, nuclear power, and we can't dam anything up for hydro power. It's lunacy. So I've run out of patience. Human beings need to live too. We are not less important than bears or birds or fish or bugs. This new plant was a step in the right direction.

Again, you are lumping all "environmentalists" together. That would be like if I lumped all business and industry advocates tofgether. They are not all the same- and it would be dishonest of me or anyone else to pretend that they are.

I did not and do not oppose the coal powered plant we're talking about here. But I do oppose strip mining for coal as it is currently conducted in the atmosphere of legal corruption and the devil-may-care attitudes about the excesses of human miseries and other environmental mayhem of strip mining for that coal.

Two post with legitimate questions in an area that you are supposed to be somewhat knowledgeable about based on what you've stated your past experiences are and you're stating you neither support or don't support the plant and all you can do is say we have to address the manner in which me mine coal.

That's freaking pathetic Frank!!!

I have always said here that we need to look at and change how we strip mine for coal. And I expect to say so again and again. And in your more lucid moments you indicate agreement that the permitting and oversight of strip mining activities is corrupt.

And I have claimed no particular experience or knowledge in either clean coal technology or power plant constructions. And I have said repeatedly that I am not convinced that human activity is a significant contributor to global wrarming- even if there is any such warming.

So I don't care if you think it's pathetic, or think its spaghetti. You have me mixed up with someone else.

Not at all, Aaron. Ziggy raises legitimate concerns. I oppose strip mining, and mountain top removal too. How we obtain the coal is as important as how we use it.

I realize all environmentalists are not the same. However, they do frequently work together. I think a compelling argument can be made that the sane & rational environmentalist can and should counter the irresponsible ones.

I don't think environmentalists who use legal and constructive channels to further their goals are the same as the whackos who spike trees or burn down new subdivisions. I'm a prolifer......I refuse to be lumped with the lunatics who bomb abortion clinics so I understand where you're coming from.

I think there is a difference.....the prolife groups I am involved in and the people I have worked with over the years all very vocally condemn those who are crazy and irresponsible. I shun such people. Collectively we ostracize them and seek to marginalize them. An individual who is truly prolife wouldn't bomb a clinic risking, and sometimes taking, the lives of innocent people. We lead by example. We donate to charities that help pregnant women who are unable or unwilling to care for their children and we provide resources for women facing unplanned pregnancies who want to keep their babies.

I'm not seeing that sort of action from environmentalists. I don't see any stepping forward and pushing to construct cleaner coal fired plants or to safely and responsibly drill for oil. I don't hear environmentalists raising hell because of all the obstacles in the path of renewable energy projects like a wind farm off the coast of Nantucket. Reasonable environmentalist should shun and seek to neutralize those who do.

So I've lost all patience.

ziggy wrote:I have always said here that we need to look at and change how we strip mine for coal. And I expect to say so again and again. And in your more lucid moments you indicate agreement that the permitting and oversight of strip mining activities is corrupt.

And I have claimed no particular experience or knowledge in either clean coal technology or power plant constructions. And I have said repeatedly that I am not convinced that human activity is a significant contributor to global wrarming- even if there is any such warming.

So I don't care if you think it's pathetic, or think its spaghetti. You have me mixed up with someone else.

You know nothing of the military Frank or the defense of this country but you have no problem spouting your tripe on that subject.

Considering both plants are in your back yard, seems to me someone as socially conscience as you would educate yourself on clean coal. For all you know, mountain top removal may provide the cleanest coal possible!!!

Stephanie wrote:Not at all, Aaron. Ziggy raises legitimate concerns. I oppose strip mining, and mountain top removal too. How we obtain the coal is as important as how we use it.

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Frank has never posted those 'concerns'.

Why?

Aaron wrote:

Stephanie wrote:Not at all, Aaron. Ziggy raises legitimate concerns. I oppose strip mining, and mountain top removal too. How we obtain the coal is as important as how we use it.

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Frank has never posted those 'concerns'.

Why?

You are not paying attention to your own posts even, Aaron.

This forum and the older Gazette forums are full of concerns I have expressed about strip mining for coal, and equally full of your and Sam's retorts that I don't know what I am talking about- including both of you calling me an absolute liar when I told you some of my experieneces where I grew up in a strip mining area of Kanawha County.

Just because you and Sam support outlaw strip mining companies and corrupt government regulation or no regulation at all does not mean that I haven't brought those concerns here. I have- many, many times. And now your demials of having seen any of it tells us more about you than we should have to know. Yes, that is pathetic.

I should have clarified. The why was directed at Stephanie.

I was making a statement and then asking her WHY she was against MTR.

I know why you're against coal mining.

Aaron,

I've posted my objections to strip mining and MTR in the past. I recall having debate with Sam and probably you over it. I recall Sam's taunts about strip malls where the mountain was, like that's a good thing.

I oppose mountain top removal for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the damage they do to entire ecosystems. Clogging streams and creating sludge and destroying the habitats of countless creatures is not by any stretch of the imagination a responsible way to harvest anything.

I have never believed that because we can do something we should do it. MTR and strip mining are abusive to the land and all the creatures dependent on it.

In addition, I believe that just as blocking modern coal fired plants that are cleaner and more efficient harms the cause of sensible environmentalists, so too the defense of MTR and strip mining harms the cause of those who truly desire mining practices that are not hazardous to workers, neighbors, or wildlife.

ziggy wrote:This forum and the older Gazette forums are full of concerns I have expressed about strip mining for coal, and equally full of your and Sam's retorts that I don't know what I am talking about- including both of you calling me an absolute liar when I told you some of my experieneces where I grew up in a strip mining area of Kanawha County.

Let's say I was born in Missouri. SHOW ME those specific concerns with strip mining!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And yes, I recall the sad, sad story you told about your child hood and how the big bad coal company came and and destroyed your gigging pond and it almost made me want to cry.

Then I thought for 2 seconds and said to myself...

I said Self, (that's what I call myself when I'm talking to myself) ole Frank has been wailing about coal every since you been posting (it was somewhere around a year I believe) and he's been questioned many times by not only you self, but others as well as to why he hates coal mining so much and he never, ever, one time told the sad, sad story about the gigging pond and turtles and rabbits and his destroyed childhood when it would have provided a logical answer the question he was ask one thousand three hundred forty two times; why he despised coal mining so much. Each and every one of those one thousand three hundred for two times ole Frank was ask, he could have provided a logical answer but ole Frank didn't do that. Ole Frank waited at least a year, until the one thousand three hundred forth third time he was ask why he despised coal mining so much that he finally told that sad, sad story about the gigging pond and turtle and rabbits and whatnot.

I thought about it and thought about it and thought about it and as much as I tried, I just couldn't wrap my brain around why ole Frank waited until the one thousand, three hundred and forth third time to tell that sad story so I figrured he was either way too skeered to admit that he's a socialist who does't have as much against coal as he does against coal companines, they who make the buckets of money and then steal it from the poor workers and the government and keeps all them profits for the themselves and the rich shareholders who never worked a day in their life or deserved the profit off another man's back.

It was either that or I figured ole Frank just told one whale of a whopper.

Now to be honest, deep down I believe with about 97.528% certainity that it's the first described sceniaro above but I won't completely eliminate the second.

So which is it Frank? Why did you wait until the one thousand three hundred and fort third time to tell that sad, sad story about the gigging pond and snapping turtles and rabbits and whatnot?

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

I've posted my objections to strip mining and MTR in the past. I recall having debate with Sam and probably you over it. I recall Sam's taunts about strip malls where the mountain was, like that's a good thing.

I oppose mountain top removal for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the damage they do to entire ecosystems. Clogging streams and creating sludge and destroying the habitats of countless creatures is not by any stretch of the imagination a responsible way to harvest anything.

I have never believed that because we can do something we should do it. MTR and strip mining are abusive to the land and all the creatures dependent on it.

In addition, I believe that just as blocking modern coal fired plants that are cleaner and more efficient harms the cause of sensible environmentalists, so too the defense of MTR and strip mining harms the cause of those who truly desire mining practices that are not hazardous to workers, neighbors, or wildlife.

You didn't have the debate with me. I don't wholeheartedly defend the practice. I defend it IF it's done in accordance with the proper permits and I understand WHY coal companies do it.

Now the question is, do you understand why coal companies employ mountain top removal procedures?

Why did you wait until the one thousand three hundred and fort third time to tell that sad, sad story about the gigging pond and snapping turtles and rabbits and whatnot?

Because never before, Aaron, had Sam nor anyone else told me that I didn't know what I was talking about because I had never lived anywhere near any coal mines. Sam made a bet and lost. And when I called his hand and showed him my cards, you both called me a liar- because I had once again exposed Sam for the blowhard, know nothing know-it-all that he is.

Aaron wrote:I should have clarified. The why was directed at Stephanie.

I was making a statement and then asking her WHY she was against MTR.

I know why you're against coal mining.

Why do you think I am against coal mining?

Aaron wrote:I should have clarified. The why was directed at Stephanie.

But the accusation was about me, to wit:

Aaron wrote:

Stephanie wrote:Not at all, Aaron. Ziggy raises legitimate concerns. I oppose strip mining, and mountain top removal too. How we obtain the coal is as important as how we use it.

Frank has never posted those 'concerns'.
Why?

That is a flat out lie, Aaron, because you have replied to my posted concerns about strip mining many times.

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:I have always said here that we need to look at and change how we strip mine for coal. And I expect to say so again and again. And in your more lucid moments you indicate agreement that the permitting and oversight of strip mining activities is corrupt.

And I have claimed no particular experience or knowledge in either clean coal technology or power plant constructions. And I have said repeatedly that I am not convinced that human activity is a significant contributor to global wrarming- even if there is any such warming.

So I don't care if you think it's pathetic, or think its spaghetti. You have me mixed up with someone else.

You know nothing of the military Frank or the defense of this country but you have no problem spouting your tripe on that subject.

One does not need to have a military career to recognize when President Lyndon Johnson or President George W. Bush is lying about going to war.

Considering both plants are in your back yard, seems to me someone as socially conscience as you would educate yourself on clean coal.

When the way it's mined is cleaned up first, then talk to me about the way it's burned.

Until then, I am not fighting "clean coal", but I am not championing it, either. The mining messes must be dealt with first- because they represent the first and longest lasting deleterious effects of strip mining for coal.

Aaron wrote:You didn't have the debate with me. I don't wholeheartedly defend the practice. I defend it IF it's done in accordance with the proper permits and I understand WHY coal companies do it.

Now the question is, do you understand why coal companies employ mountain top removal procedures?

I'm opposed to it. I don't agree with all the things our government allows through permits just as I don't agree with all the things they prohibit with laws that violate our liberty or restrictions that violate our pursuit of the "American Dream".

I'm quite sure coal companies remove mountain tops because they make a lot of money doing it. If they weren't making money, they wouldn't do it.

Stephanie wrote:
It's like all the environmentalists fighting wind farms because of bats and birds and the obstruction of their view. Accomodations can be made for the birds and the bats by using radar or sonar to detect incoming flocks and shut her down in conjunction with a cage or barrier etc. It's never good enough.

Stephanie, those environmentalists "count" the numbers of dead bats and birds ........ just like the DNR "counts" the number of live deer.

DNR people drive around ..... and if they see four (4) deer standing/running out in an open field ...... then they figure bout "5 to 1", ..... thus twenty (20) deer are hiding in the woods ....... and the total is actually "24 White Tail deer in that area".

But now knowing the "truth n' honesty" that environmentalists are noted for ...... they probably use a fudge count figure of "20 to 1".


Thus, iffen they find one (1) dead bat or bird ....... they will report twenty-one (21) dead bats or birds that were killed by those generator props.

Find 5 dead, ...... report 105 killed.

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ziggy wrote:

Why did you wait until the one thousand three hundred and fort third time to tell that sad, sad story about the gigging pond and snapping turtles and rabbits and whatnot?

Because never before, Aaron, had Sam nor anyone else told me that I didn't know what I was talking about because I had never lived anywhere near any coal mines. Sam made a bet and lost. And when I called his hand and showed him my cards, you both called me a liar- because I had once again exposed Sam for the blowhard, know nothing know-it-all that he is.

Frank, it seems to me someone is telling you don't know what you're talking about every day. You had too many opportunities where you should have told that story. And I didn't call you a liar. I pointed out then what I am now. You waited until you did to tell the story makes no sense whatsoever, thus it does create doubt. That’s simply how it is and I doubt it creates doubt for only me and Sam.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:I should have clarified. The why was directed at Stephanie.

I was making a statement and then asking her WHY she was against MTR.

I know why you're against coal mining.

Why do you think I am against coal mining?

From your post.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:I should have clarified. The why was directed at Stephanie.

But the accusation was about me, to wit:

Aaron wrote:

Stephanie wrote:Not at all, Aaron. Ziggy raises legitimate concerns. I oppose strip mining, and mountain top removal too. How we obtain the coal is as important as how we use it.

Frank has never posted those 'concerns'.
Why?

That is a flat out lie, Aaron, because you have replied to my posted concerns about strip mining many times.

No, I've responded to your rants against Don Blankenship and Massey many times. Against the practice of MTR, no, I don't think I have.

As I said earlier, SHOW ME Frank!!!