Is the VSC Commission a bunch of Greenies?

ziggy wrote:
This forum and the older Gazette forums are full of concerns I have expressed about strip mining for coal, and equally full of your and Sam's retorts that I don't know what I am talking about- including both of you calling me an absolute liar when I told you some of my experieneces where I grew up in a strip mining area of Kanawha County.

Well Zigster, I have an ABSOLUTE right to call you an ABSOLUTE liar ..... because of such statements of YOURS such as noted in "red" in the following statement.

ziggy wrote:Just because you and Sam support outlaw strip mining companies and corrupt government regulation or no regulation at all does not mean that I haven't brought those concerns here. I have- many, many times. And now your demials of having seen any of it tells us more about you than we should have to know. Yes, that is pathetic.

Zigster, that was an ABSOLUTE lie on your part and you know damn well it was.

That was an ABSOLUTE lie on you part just to CYA so that you won't have to publically admit who has the ultimate responsibility and legal authority to regulate and control mining operations in West Virginia.

A CYA for your denial that the "party" that has the ultimate responsibility and legal authority ..... is not the "party" that is at fault.

Ziggy, I do not lie ..... and therefore I do not need to post CYA's or "un-lie" things.



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ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:I have always said here that we need to look at and change how we strip mine for coal. And I expect to say so again and again. And in your more lucid moments you indicate agreement that the permitting and oversight of strip mining activities is corrupt.

And I have claimed no particular experience or knowledge in either clean coal technology or power plant constructions. And I have said repeatedly that I am not convinced that human activity is a significant contributor to global wrarming- even if there is any such warming.

So I don't care if you think it's pathetic, or think its spaghetti. You have me mixed up with someone else.

You know nothing of the military Frank or the defense of this country but you have no problem spouting your tripe on that subject.

One does not need to have a military career to recognize when President Lyndon Johnson or President George W. Bush is lying about going to war.

Considering both plants are in your back yard, seems to me someone as socially conscience as you would educate yourself on clean coal.

When the way it's mined is cleaned up first, then talk to me about the way it's burned.

Until then, I am not fighting "clean coal", but I am not championing it, either. The mining messes must be dealt with first- because they represent the first and longest lasting deleterious effects of strip mining for coal.

That's a load Frank and you know it. You've keep saying GWB lied but you can't prove it. You refuse to address the N.I.E.'s of the day in either case yet you still spout your anti-war PERSONAL opinion but you refuse to comment on a power plant within 50 miles of your back yard that is supposedly so bad, they offered to purchase the entire town because of the manner in which coal is mined.

What a joke!!!

Stephanie wrote:

Aaron wrote:You didn't have the debate with me. I don't wholeheartedly defend the practice. I defend it IF it's done in accordance with the proper permits and I understand WHY coal companies do it.

Now the question is, do you understand why coal companies employ mountain top removal procedures?

I'm opposed to it. I don't agree with all the things our government allows through permits just as I don't agree with all the things they prohibit with laws that violate our liberty or restrictions that violate our pursuit of the "American Dream".

I'm quite sure coal companies remove mountain tops because they make a lot of money doing it. If they weren't making money, they wouldn't do it.

I think you need to do a little research on MTR and why Arch Coal (they do the most in WV) actually does Strip mining in WV.

Ziggy and Stephanie, now here below are four (4) pictures, one each of sights in the States of Kentucky, …. New Mexico, …. Missouri ….. and West Virginia.

Now there is something DAMN WRONG with one of them, ….. but I can’t quite figure out which one it is or what is wrong with it.

So, maybe one of you could tell me.



A former surface coal mine was reclaimed to pasture and farmland in Kentucky. Notice the cattle grazing on the hill sides. Prior to mining the land was overridden with weeds and of little use to man or beast. Now, it is a pastoral scene, with the land value soaring from $200/acre, prior to mining to $1,200/acre after reclamation was completed by the mining company. The owners of this farm will definitely agree that the mining company involved is a Good Neighbor!


The Coal Mine Reclamation Program (CMRP) received an application from the Pittsburg and Midway Coal Mining Company for the renewal of the Ancho Surface Coal Mine Permit (2002-02) in February 2007. The mine is located at the York Canyon Mine Complex, in Colfax County, New Mexico,


A view of a portion of the BeeVeer Mine in Randolph County, Missouri. The picture illustrates the exemplary job of reclamation completed by Associated Electric at this former mine site. Note the various land uses established including water, wildlife habitat and pasture.


At 4 o'clock every afternoon except Sunday, the blasting starts in the mountains around Judy Bonds' home in Whitesville, West Virginia.



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So they strip mine out of the goodness of their hearts? They aren't making money hand over fist by raping the land? I'd laugh but the truth is so sad.

BTW.......For the record, it really irritates this forum member off when members insist on calling each other liars. I don't think Ziggy is lying. I don't think anyone else does either, including Aaron and Sam. "Liar" is what they call people they disagree with when they don't have a good foundation to oppose their view or assertions.

Stephanie wrote:BTW.......For the record, it really irritates this forum member off when members insist on calling each other liars. I don't think Ziggy is lying. I don't think anyone else does either, including Aaron and Sam. "Liar" is what they call people they disagree with when they don't have a good foundation to oppose their view or assertions.

Steph, it should irritate you even more the FACT one is actually lying .... in their attempt to defame and harm the good name and character of the other party.

And you are right on the 2nd point, ... I don't think Ziggy is lying or a liar, ....... I know damn well he is. Just as I pointed out said in the above.

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Stephanie wrote:So they strip mine out of the goodness of their hearts? They aren't making money hand over fist by raping the land? I'd laugh but the truth is so sad.

Yes, Stephanie, coal companies are making money, especially now with coal hitting close to $100.00 per ton.

That's recent. But for years coal hovered in the general range of $25.00/ton. Arch Coal mines in Wyoming and West Virginia. In Wyoming, seams of coal run hurdreds of feet wide. The cost to mine it is substantially less then it is to mine seams in WV, which run 2 to 3 feet wide but hundreds of feet long. We're it not for MTR, which is much cheaper and SAFER then underground mining, companies like Arch would just NOT mine the millions of tons of coal they do in WV. And what happens if you restrict supply?

So while I'm all for taking as many environmental precautions as possible, I realize that MTR isn't the devil Frank makes it out to be.

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:I should have clarified. The why was directed at Stephanie.

I was making a statement and then asking her WHY she was against MTR.

I know why you're against coal mining.

Why do you think I am against coal mining?

From your post.

That's a copout. You said that you know "why" I am "against coal mining". So tell us that "why".

SamCogar wrote:

ziggy wrote:
This forum and the older Gazette forums are full of concerns I have expressed about strip mining for coal, and equally full of your and Sam's retorts that I don't know what I am talking about- including both of you calling me an absolute liar when I told you some of my experieneces where I grew up in a strip mining area of Kanawha County.

Well Zigster, I have an ABSOLUTE right to call you an ABSOLUTE liar ..... because of such statements of YOURS such as noted in "red" in the following statement.

ziggy wrote:Just because you and Sam support outlaw strip mining companies and corrupt government regulation or no regulation at all does not mean that I haven't brought those concerns here. I have- many, many times. And now your demials of having seen any of it tells us more about you than we should have to know. Yes, that is pathetic.

Zigster, that was an ABSOLUTE lie on your part and you know damn well it was.

That was an ABSOLUTE lie on you part just to CYA so that you won't have to publically admit who has the ultimate responsibility and legal authority to regulate and control mining operations in West Virginia.
.

Why would I need to "CYA"? Some of us been suing the corrupt authorities who have "the ultimate responsibility and legal authority to regulate and control mining operations in West Virginia" for years- the federal and state surface mining regulatory agencies.

And you and Aaron have been right there cheering us on, right? NOT!

Or due you think the "ultimate responsibility and legal authority to regulate and control" strip mining lies somewhere else?

Ziggy wrote:Just because you and Sam support outlaw strip mining companies and corrupt government regulation or no regulation at all....

Are you calling him a liar because of the above and only for that reason? That sure as hell isn't what Aaron is doing.

Aaron wrote:

Stephanie wrote:So they strip mine out of the goodness of their hearts? They aren't making money hand over fist by raping the land? I'd laugh but the truth is so sad.

Yes, Stephanie, coal companies are making money, especially now with coal hitting close to $100.00 per ton.

That's recent. But for years coal hovered in the general range of $25.00/ton. Arch Coal mines in Wyoming and West Virginia. In Wyoming, seams of coal run hurdreds of feet wide. The cost to mine it is substantially less then it is to mine seams in WV, which run 2 to 3 feet wide but hundreds of feet long. We're it not for MTR, which is much cheaper and SAFER then underground mining, companies like Arch would just NOT mine the millions of tons of coal they do in WV. And what happens if you restrict supply?

So while I'm all for taking as many environmental precautions as possible, I realize that MTR isn't the devil Frank makes it out to be.

The motivating factor behind MTR and strip mining is money, first and foremost. Is it safer? Safer for who? There have been numerous injuries and some deaths associated with MTR and strip mining. It's the money.

Coal will still be mined in WV even if those practices are prohibited as long as they can make money doing so. That's the bottom line.

You asked me why I opposed strip mining and MTR. You haven't countered my reasons for opposition. All you've done is stated the obvious, it is financially beneficial for coal companies to do so. That doesn't mean it's what's best for anyone but the coal companies.

Stephanie wrote:

Ziggy wrote:Just because you and Sam support outlaw strip mining companies and corrupt government regulation or no regulation at all....

Are you calling him a liar because of the above and only for that reason? That sure as hell isn't what Aaron is doing.

Stephanie, Sam and Aaron have ridiculed here any and all citizen organization lawsuits designed to bring strip mining, and especially mountaintop removal and valley fills, into compliance with the applicable state and federal laws and regulations. The try to mock and scorn the "Greenies" who institute those lawsuits. Otherwise they would nor be so critical of those lawsuits which demand that law and order prevail in the coal mining industry.

I think any reasonable interpretation of such actions here is that they support the outlaw operators as well as the agencies that allow those outlaws to operate the way they do.

And when I point out that coal operators give large amounts of money to politicians whose duty is is to implement the mining laws and make judgments about the applicable rules and regulations, Aaron calls that my "rant against Don Blankenship".

When I posted a picture of the dust swirling over March Fork Elementary school immediately after a mine blast, both Aaron and Sam- without any evidence- attacked the photographer as dishonest and the picture as a hoax, and attacked the organization she represented, the Ohio Valley Environmental Coalitioon, for having an "agenda" he doesn't agree with- although that agenda is but to have the regulatory agencies enforce the laws. Aaron avoided the matter of the dust in, on and around that school. Yet he complains that I haven't brought my concerns about strip mining here.

So you tell me- is Aaron being honest, or is he lying about what I do or don't bring here?

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:I should have clarified. The why was directed at Stephanie.

I was making a statement and then asking her WHY she was against MTR.

I know why you're against coal mining.

Why do you think I am against coal mining?

From your post.

That's a copout. You said that you know "why" I am "against coal mining". So tell us that "why".

Because you believe coal companies are getting rich off the backs of working men and you think all the profits should be returned to the people who make it, the miners.

In short Frank, you are against mining because you are a socialist. Now tell me I'm wrong.

You are wrong.

ziggy wrote:

Stephanie wrote:

Ziggy wrote:Just because you and Sam support outlaw strip mining companies and corrupt government regulation or no regulation at all....

Are you calling him a liar because of the above and only for that reason? That sure as hell isn't what Aaron is doing.

Stephanie, Sam and Aaron have ridiculed here any and all citizen organization lawsuits designed to bring strip mining, and especially mountaintop removal and valley fills, into compliance with the applicable state and federal laws and regulations. The try to mock and scorn the "Greenies" who institute those lawsuits. Otherwise they would nor be so critical of those lawsuits which demand that law and order prevail in the coal mining industry.

I think any reasonable interpretation of such actions here is that they support the outlaw operators as well as the agencies that allow those outlaws to operate the way they do.

And when I point out that coal operators give large amounts of money to politicians whose duty is is to implement the mining laws and make judgments about the applicable rules and regulations, Aaron calls that my "rant against Don Blankenship".

When I posted a picture of the dust swirling over March Fork Elementary school immediately after a mine blast, both Aaron and Sam- without any evidence- attacked the photographer as dishonest and the picture as a hoax, and attacked the organization she represented, the Ohio Valley Environmental Coalitioon, for having an "agenda" he doesn't agree with- although that agenda is but to have the regulatory agencies enforce the laws. Aaron avoided the matter of the dust in, on and around that school. Yet he complains that I haven't brought my concerns about strip mining here.

So you tell me- is Aaron being honest, or is he lying about what I do or don't bring here?

That's all a bunch of horseshit Frank and you know it. If we don't accept your views on strip mining and MTR, then we're for "outlaw operators" and that's your "reasonable interpretation". You're full of crap and you know it. You want to go directly after the coal companies even though they are following permitting procedures and we know why. Because you're a freaking socialist and you think the mines are stealing the poor working man's money. Every time you spout this garbage, I tell you the same thing; you have to start with where the problem lies, with the entity issuing the permit, which is the government. Problem is, you can never find fault with your precious government so you have to blame the coal compainies.

As for the picture you posted, what you posted here proves that your full of shit. You say here the dust was at a school and was due to a blast from MTR. Before, you said the dust was was due to loading coal at the storage facility located above the school.

So which is it Frank? Or do you even know? And you expect us to accept your word on what caused the dust?



Sorry Frank, but when it comes to coal mines, your very anti-coal, you clearly have an angenda of stopping all mining. Forgive me if I don't put any stock into the bullshit you spread.

ziggy wrote:You are wrong.

ziggy wrote:
When I posted a picture of the dust swirling over March Fork Elementary school immediately after a mine blast...

So tell me Frank, just where is this MTR site in which the blast stirred up all that dust at Marsh Fork Elementary, which is located in the lower left corner of this picture.



Now tell me I'm wrong again Frank.

You are wrong, again.

So are you still telling us that I have not brought some of my concerns about strip mining generally and MTR and valley fills specifically to these forums?

You want to go directly after the coal companies even though they are following permitting procedures and we know why. Because you\'re a freaking socialist and you think the mines are stealing the poor working man\'s money. Every time you spout this garbage, I tell you the same thing; you have to start with where the problem lies, with the entity issuing the permit, which is the government. Problem is, you can never find fault with your precious government so you have to blame the coal compainies.

Then why are the groups I work with and support suing the state and federal government and not going "directly after the coal companies"- as you say I am, just above. If I could "never find fault with my government" why would I be suing it?

And when I express fault with my givernment, you often say it's only because I "know nothing about the military".

So who is really full of it here?

ziggy wrote:You are wrong, again.

If I'm wrong then all you have to do is show me in the picture where the mountain top removal site that caused the blast is.



As you can see from the picture below, if there were MTR near Marsh Fork Elementary that caused the dust, it would be visable but I'm just not seeing it. The picture above is clearly different then the one below.



Help us all to undertand where the MTR is that caused the blast that stirred up the dust that got in the poor kiddies eyes during their baseball game Frank. You did say that there was a baseball going on behind the school WHEN the picture was taken, didn't you Frank!!!

ziggy wrote:

You want to go directly after the coal companies even though they are following permitting procedures and we know why. Because you're a freaking socialist and you think the mines are stealing the poor working man's money. Every time you spout this garbage, I tell you the same thing; you have to start with where the problem lies, with the entity issuing the permit, which is the government. Problem is, you can never find fault with your precious government so you have to blame the coal compainies.

Then why are the groups I work with suing the government and not coal companies?

Then why is the bulk of your rants directed at the coal companies?

ziggy wrote:So are you still telling us that I have not brought some of my concerns about strip mining generally and MTR and valley fills specifically to these forums?

Sure you have. When you want to wail on Don Blankenship and Massey Energy.

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

You want to go directly after the coal companies even though they are following permitting procedures and we know why. Because you're a freaking socialist and you think the mines are stealing the poor working man's money. Every time you spout this garbage, I tell you the same thing; you have to start with where the problem lies, with the entity issuing the permit, which is the government. Problem is, you can never find fault with your precious government so you have to blame the coal compainies.

Then why are the groups I work with suing the government and not coal companies?

Then why is the bulk of your rants directed at the coal companies?

Because the coal companies that furnish the money that corrupts the government officials at both state and local legislative and administrative levels. And when I point it out, you, as you did just the morning here, dismiss it as just my "rant against Don Blankenship".

But if you don't want me to represent that Don Blankenship bribes politicians, then you should have Don Blankenship not bankroll those politicians' election campaigns- especially in amounts of millions of dollars.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

You want to go directly after the coal companies even though they are following permitting procedures and we know why. Because you're a freaking socialist and you think the mines are stealing the poor working man's money. Every time you spout this garbage, I tell you the same thing; you have to start with where the problem lies, with the entity issuing the permit, which is the government. Problem is, you can never find fault with your precious government so you have to blame the coal compainies.

Then why are the groups I work with suing the government and not coal companies?

Then why is the bulk of your rants directed at the coal companies?

Because the coal companies that furnish the money that corrupts the government officials at both state and local legislative and administrative levels. And when I point it out, you, as you did just the morning here, dismiss it as just my "rant against Don Blankenship".

But if you don't want me to represent that Don Blankenship bribes politicians, then you should have Don Blankenship not bankroll those politicians' election campaigns- especially in amounts of millions of dollars.

So why not rant against the government officials that take the money?

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:You are wrong, again.

If I'm wrong then all you have to do is show me in the picture where the mountain top removal site that caused the blast is.



As you can see from the picture below, if there were MTR near Marsh Fork Elementary that caused the dust, it would be visable but I'm just not seeing it. The picture above is clearly different then the one below.



Help us all to undertand where the MTR is that caused the blast that stirred up the dust that got in the poor kiddies eyes during their baseball game Frank. You did say that there was a baseball going on behind the school WHEN the picture was taken, didn't you Frank!!!

Where's the MTR site Frank?

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:So are you still telling us that I have not brought some of my concerns about strip mining generally and MTR and valley fills specifically to these forums?

Sure you have.

Well then quit saying that I haven't, and I'll quit saying you are a liar about it.

When you want to wail on Don Blankenship and Massey Energy.

When they stop bribing politicians, and stop racking up thousands of environmental permit violations, I'll back off. But until then, that is fair game- whether you like it or not.