Teacher Absences Bad for Education?

Stephanie wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:If teachers are going to use where we rank nationally for the purpose of pay then I most certainly have a right to expect to get a better product for what I'm paying.

"Better" compared to what?

Measured by what?

Measured against what?

With allowances that allow for differences in how many and which attendent influences?

You know I'm one of those pie in the sky kind of people who honestly believe that children possess unlimited potential. Sure there are youngsters with disabilities and kids who come from homes with parents who won't, or even can't, read them books or even just treat them with love and respect. That is true in West Virginia and every other state in the nation.

So I have to ask, Ziggy, are you suggesting that children from West Virginia are collectively not as intelligent as their peers in other states who consistantly out perform them? By the questions you pose to Aaron that sure sounds like what you're suggesting.

Or perhaps you're suggesting instead that WV teachers face challenges that are greater than their counterparts in other states. Like somehow you think that poverty and lousy parents are somehow unique to this state.

I am suggesting that if the measurement of the success or lack of success of this state's education system is testing scores compared to other states, then one needs to know what influences are different from state to state, and calculate that into the formula used for comparison.

Just expressing dissatisfaction with annual test scores that are lower than other states, and blaming teachers for it all as though the only differences state to state is the quality of teachers, is just as wrong as using absolute salary rankings by state, and with no other considerations, as an equitable basis for determining the fairness of teacher salaries.

Or perhaps you think that money is the solution to all the problems we face.

Part of the problems we face is teacher shortages and looming greater numbers of teacher shortages as many teachers will retire in the next several years. Some of the border counties feel that pinch quite severly already. One enticement to recruiting and retaining teachers is salaries paid.

Money can't solve everything and I do think it is fair to tie student achievement to teacher compensation.

Not if that is the only "tie" we make. Student achievement involves more than just how good or how bad the teacher is.

Teachers who are talented and dedicated find ways to overcome the obstacles they face.

That is fine in theory. But how many teachers here, or in Rhode Island, or anywhere will say, "I found ways to overcome all the obstacles I faced"?

I also think it is wise to consider paying teachers qualified to teach AP Calculus more than the PE teacher or the Home Ec teacher. That is the way the free market attracts people to various fields of expertise. It works in the business world and there is no reason to believe it couldn't work in public schools too.

If we treated all our teachers like we treat athletic coaches, we would have no problem finding more than enough teachers.

ziggy wrote:
If we treated all our teachers like we treat athletic coaches, we would have no problem finding more than enough teachers.

Athletic coaches are paid about $2,500 a year to coach and that is for a head coaching position. An assistant position pays about $1,500. For that money, coaches work an extra 15 to 20 hours a week doing everything but driving the bus (unless of course they have a CDL-it's happened before) for 2 to 4 months. The money is far less per hour then what they make teaching. How is that going to solve our massive teachers shortage?

On top of that, most schools overall athletic program at least comes close to breaking even so the schools are not spending student money of those extra curricular activities. This argument is bankrupt.

wvsasha wrote:
Just think what would happen to the schools and classrooms if teachers worked only to the letter of their contract? And no one agreed to take on extra duty contracts?

No chaperoning for proms, field trips, dances, after school activities, tutoring, no clubs, no workshops enriching the teacher to enrich the classroom, no extra lunch duties for supervising in the cafeteria, and so on.

Who is going to get hurt by this? The students of course - which is why a movement like this wouldn't go very far - but teachers are tired of being taken advantage of with "it's for the good of the students" and consistently giving up our time and not being compensated.

GOOD GRIEF, ...... I believe you fogot to mention "midnight basketball".

No chaperoning for proms – if the students can pay for the cost of the prom and a limo to take them there, etc., ……. they can pay for a chaperone if necessary.

field trips – yeah right, ….. to bowling alleys, amusement parks, movie theatres, shopping malls

dances – those should not be a school initiated function

after school activities – what next, are the teachers going to “tuck them into bed each night”?

tutoring – if the 180 ID Law was adhered to, very little tutoring would be needed.

no clubs – so, no clubs.

no workshops enriching the teacher to enrich the classroom – and after “X” years of monthly workshops ……. just what has been enriched, …… except the idle conversation and food partaken?

no extra lunch duties for supervising in the cafeteria – HA, what supervision? Supervision means to “monitor an activity”, …… it doesn’t mean standing around lolly-gagging until someone informs you there is a “situation” that needs your “attention”.

.

I don't know about in your county, Aaron, but here athletic coaches routinely are excused from their "regular" (but which are anything but regular) classroom assignments to go to conferences, allowed to leave their "regular" classrooms in the afternoon to conduct training and to travel (along with the team) to far away other schools for games.

Some evenings there are not enough bus operators to cover the regular evening bus routes because so many regular bus operators are off on athletic trips with the coaches and the teams. And so the bus loads are "doubled up" to the the kids home. It does not happen often- but it does occassionally. My point is not about busses- but about the numbers of coaches (and students) who do not get a full day in before going off to play somewhere.

Effectively, they are full time coaches being paid for their sports hobby, but only part time teachers- but yet are paid a teachers' salary plus the "coaching" supplements.

If parent volunteers can do the extra duty and extra-curricular activities teachers are asked to do- some of which Sonja lists, then volunteers can run the athletic programs.

Yeah, coaches got it really tough, don't they?

ziggy wrote:I don't know about in your county, Aaron, but here athletic coaches routinely are excused from their "regular" (but which are anything but regular) classroom assignments to go to conferences, allowed to leave their "regular" classrooms in the afternoon to conduct training and to travel (along with the team) to far away other schools for games.

Some evenings there are not enough bus operators to cover the regular evening bus routes because so many regular bus operators are off on athletic trips with the coaches and the teams. And so the bus loads are "doubled up" to the the kids home. It does not happen often- but it does occassionally. My point is not about busses- but about the numbers of coaches (and students) who do not get a full day in before going off to play somewhere.

Effectively, they are full time coaches being paid for their sports hobby, but only part time teachers- but yet are paid a teachers' salary plus the "coaching" supplements.

If parent volunteers can do the extra duty and extra-curricular activities teachers are asked to do and which Sonja lists, then volunteers can run the athletic programs.

Yeah, coaches got it really tough, don't they?

I don't know if 'up here' is Ripley High School or Ravenswood High School. It can make a difference as Ripley competes in the MSAC and Ravenswood competes in the mid OVC (I believe). Rules have been changed in recent years that no longer allow school time games (with some exceptions), the only time students are missing is for away games. While that does happen, students aren't missing the amount of school time that you insuinate they are. On average, when traveling, kids will be let out of class early.

As for busses, yes, that does happen but only because the county MANDATES each team travel on a county bus. If the county would do away with that law, some schools could purchase their own transportation and in the end, pay less then they do using county buses. Smaller sports (tennis, golf, ect) could greatly reduce their cost as paying for a bus eats is their major expense.

Appearantly you know nothing of athletics. Parents are running the atheltic departments. Ripley has one fundraiser a year, which raises in excess of a million dollars and they pay for EVERYTHING for ALL extracurricular activities. Jackson County pays for nothing.

As for the coaches, sometime during the early 90's, the SSAC changed the rules that mandated a coach had to be a teacher and now many positions are filled by non-teachers. It's estimated that within the next 20 years, teachers will make up less then 10% of state coaches.

Of course that also eliminates many men from the profession of teaching and I believe studies have shown that lack or male teachers create other problems.

You can do away with all athletics or you can do stop allowing students to leave early but neither are solutions to teacher problems as you suggest.

You're wrong and your argument is bankrupt.

Ziggy,

It isn't just test scores. There are numerous other measures of achievements where students in this state are lagging far behind like graduation rates and number of students going on to college.

In any event I believe your mind is made up about teacher merit pay. For some reason teachers alone shouldn't be held accountable for the quality of their work. I simply don't understand that mindset.

Nor do I understand why you fail to see the logic of linking teacher pay to the subject they teach. It isn't just about market influences, it is about paying people for their skills and abilities. Everyone of us knows people who went to college and obtained degrees in history or fine arts but couldn't find work in any area other than teaching so they do what needs to be done to teach art or history. They are a dime a dozen, but a teacher qualified to teach French IV or AP Calculus is very hard to come by.

I like you, you know I do. I also respect you. I just don't understand how your mind works.

Aaron,

A man who enters the teaching profession simply in order to coach a high school sports team isn't likely to be a the kind of male teachers our schools need. If this new rule is eliminating those men I say hurray.

I am not an expert on athletic department finances. I do question how you propose transporting the golf and tennis players, though. I can provide you with plenty of information regarding how unsafe those 15 passenger vans are. They are not a suitable alternative.

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

A man who enters the teaching profession simply in order to coach a high school sports team isn't likely to be a the kind of male teachers our schools need. If this new rule is eliminating those men I say hurray.

I am not an expert on athletic department finances. I do question how you propose transporting the golf and tennis players, though. I can provide you with plenty of information regarding how unsafe those 15 passenger vans are. They are not a suitable alternative.

Mini buses that are used for pre school would work if parents driving their own children isn't acceptable. That conbined with some very safe mini-vans would haul all participants for about every sports team save football to away events. Right now, we're putting 6 to 15 kids on a bus (for most sports) and the bus is coming back carrying a coach and maybe 1 or 2 students because parents sign kids out after the event and for this we're paying as much as $400.00 or more. It makes no sense whatsoever. It's a law born out of paying bus drivers OT more then anything else.

I think you guys that are biased against sports fail to understand how important sports and some of these coaches can be in young peoples lives. There is a gentleman in Winfield by the name of Leon McCoy who hasn't coached football for 10 years who is still a folk hero in Putnam County not for champioships he's won but on lives he's touched. Doc Holiday (new coach at WVU) gives COACH McCoy as much credit as anyone else for where he's at today and still communicates with him on a regular basis. How many english or home economics teachers can say they have students that come back to school to specifically look them up 10, 20 and 30 years after they graduate?

Hell, how many former students even remember their english or math teacher's names 30 years later, let alone still contact them.

I fail to understand why non-sports people like you and Zig are so jealous of athletes.

You're nuts, Aaron.

I've got nothing againts "sports". I only choose to keep them in their correct place in high school and society. Schools doen't exist in order for youngsters to play football or softball. Athletic programs exist in order to keep students in school and to provide scholarship opportunities and fitness opportunities.

I will admit to being less than thrilled that the high school quarterback is almost always viewed as some sort of community hero and the valedictorian as a footnote. I don't blame that on public schools, coaches, parents or students but rather on a society that places more value on superficial things than it does what is truly important.

I acknowledge that team sports are a boon to the local economies of cities across America, I also know that nobody is going to solve the problems we face by throwing or catching a ball. Scientists and doctors will find the solutions to diseases and catastrophes.

Extra duty contracts are similar to coaching contracts. These can include yearbook, newspaper, department head (and to be fair -- the only department at the high school that I feel NEEDS a dept. head would be the sp.ed. department and that only because some ONE person needs to be designated to deal with the mounds of paperwork and meetings and extra responsibilities at the school level), graduation (high school....not kindergarten), sexual harassment coordinator (it's important that everyone be sexually harassed properly), screening referral agent/transition facilitator and so on.

These are duties that take such an extra amount of time and work outside of the normal teaching regimen that someone decided they should be paid positions. Yes - they are advertised within the school and if there is more than one person insane enough to want to do it - the principal makes the determination who gets it.

No one can be forced into taking an extra duty contract.

Interestingly - in WV being a dept. head for most of the departments (only at the high school level are there department heads) means very little. You meet with the principal occasionally to make some curricular recommendations. Mainly when it's your textbooks turn for new adoption (every 5-7 years) then you do get the headache of receiving and counting and stamping and distributing them to the rest of your department. In several other states I've read about, dept. heads actually have administrative responsibilities and duties - including observations of their teachers and power to discipline.

wvsasha wrote:Extra duty contracts are similar to coaching contracts. These can include yearbook, newspaper, department head (and to be fair -- the only department at the high school that I feel NEEDS a dept. head would be the sp.ed. department and that only because some ONE person needs to be designated to deal with the mounds of paperwork and meetings and extra responsibilities at the school level), graduation (high school....not kindergarten), sexual harassment coordinator (it's important that everyone be sexually harassed properly), screening referral agent/transition facilitator and so on.

These are duties that take such an extra amount of time and work outside of the normal teaching regimen that someone decided they should be paid positions. Yes - they are advertised within the school and if there is more than one person insane enough to want to do it - the principal makes the determination who gets it.

No one can be forced into taking an extra duty contract.

Interestingly - in WV being a dept. head for most of the departments (only at the high school level are there department heads) means very little. You meet with the principal occasionally to make some curricular recommendations. Mainly when it's your textbooks turn for new adoption (every 5-7 years) then you do get the headache of receiving and counting and stamping and distributing them to the rest of your department. In several other states I've read about, dept. heads actually have administrative responsibilities and duties - including observations of their teachers and power to discipline.

It is a compensated position though.

And I'm not surprised that WV is different then most states.

I don't know if you've figured it out, but I believe the vast majority of our educational problems lie within the administrative departments. But until ALL of you guys stop sticking together, give up arcane tenure rules, change the way teachers are paid and change the way administrators are hired, nothing is going to get solved. That's the way I see it.

Stephanie wrote:You're nuts, Aaron.

I've got nothing againts "sports". I only choose to keep them in their correct place in high school and society. Schools doen't exist in order for youngsters to play football or softball. Athletic programs exist in order to keep students in school and to provide scholarship opportunities and fitness opportunities.

I will admit to being less than thrilled that the high school quarterback is almost always viewed as some sort of community hero and the valedictorian as a footnote. I don't blame that on public schools, coaches, parents or students but rather on a society that places more value on superficial things than it does what is truly important.

I acknowledge that team sports are a boon to the local economies of cities across America, I also know that nobody is going to solve the problems we face by throwing or catching a ball. Scientists and doctors will find the solutions to diseases and catastrophes.

Yes Stephanie I am nuts. Your point is?

One thing that's remained constant is the sports bashing. One of you implied that kids got out of school to practice. That's just not true. The state BOE ruled years ago that schools can't use class time for extra curricular activites even thought they mandate gym and allow marching band to be part of the curriculm.

Game time sporting events, for the most part, have been banned as well.

I don't know what kind of teacher Chuck Elkins is but I do know that he's been a teacher at Buffalo High School since 1980 so he's given 28 years to that school and that community. I'd think that should count for something.

I had his dad when I was in school. He taught for 40+ years before retiring. His brother Bill is the newbie as he's only been teaching for 26 years in Lincoln County.

But that service means nothing because in addition to being teachers, they're coaches.

Ahhhhhhhhh.

OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

Aaron wrote:

Stephanie wrote:You're nuts, Aaron.

I've got nothing againts "sports". I only choose to keep them in their correct place in high school and society. Schools doen't exist in order for youngsters to play football or softball. Athletic programs exist in order to keep students in school and to provide scholarship opportunities and fitness opportunities.

I will admit to being less than thrilled that the high school quarterback is almost always viewed as some sort of community hero and the valedictorian as a footnote. I don't blame that on public schools, coaches, parents or students but rather on a society that places more value on superficial things than it does what is truly important.

I acknowledge that team sports are a boon to the local economies of cities across America, I also know that nobody is going to solve the problems we face by throwing or catching a ball. Scientists and doctors will find the solutions to diseases and catastrophes.

Yes Stephanie I am nuts. Your point is?

One thing that's remained constant is the sports bashing. One of you implied that kids got out of school to practice. That's just not true. The state BOE ruled years ago that schools can't use class time for extra curricular activites even thought they mandate gym and allow marching band to be part of the curriculm.

Game time sporting events, for the most part, have been banned as well.

I don't know what kind of teacher Chuck Elkins is but I do know that he's been a teacher at Buffalo High School since 1980 so he's given 28 years to that school and that community. I'd think that should count for something.

I had his dad when I was in school. He taught for 40+ years before retiring. His brother Bill is the newbie as he's only been teaching for 26 years in Lincoln County.

But that service means nothing because in addition to being teachers, they're coaches.

Ahhhhhhhhh.

OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

Geesh, I guess my daughter traveling to watch the girl's softball team during the school day was a figment of my imagination. Just as those pep rallies are figments of my daughter's imagination.

For the record, you know my daughter is a student of Chuck Elkins but you have never heard or read me say he is a lousy teacher. Unlike many coach/teachers I've encountered, that man actually does give a damn about his academic classes and the students who take them. In his classroom he displays a banner with the names of all the students who have taken his calculus class and what schools they have attended, date of college graduation etc.

What you are oblivious to is the fact that last year my daughter's 4th block teacher coached a sports team for another school within the district. That teacher regularly left school early, sometimes only 10 minutes after the start of her class. Now that I have a HUGE problem with. I blame the teacher for putting his students in that situation and I blame school and county administrators and I blame the BOE for allowing this to go on. This same teacher also took failed to make himself available on parent/teacher conference day last semester.

Stephanie wrote:Ziggy,

It isn't just test scores. There are numerous other measures of achievements where students in this state are lagging far behind like graduation rates and number of students going on to college.

In any event I believe your mind is made up about teacher merit pay. For some reason teachers alone shouldn't be held accountable for the quality of their work. I simply don't understand that mindset.

Nor do I understand why you fail to see the logic of linking teacher pay to the subject they teach. It isn't just about market influences, it is about paying people for their skills and abilities. Everyone of us knows people who went to college and obtained degrees in history or fine arts but couldn't find work in any area other than teaching so they do what needs to be done to teach art or history. They are a dime a dozen, but a teacher qualified to teach French IV or AP Calculus is very hard to come by.

I like you, you know I do. I also respect you. I just don't understand how your mind works.

I have not said that I disagree with any of that, Stephanie. But those changes cannot be made in an authoritarian way by only one side. It has to be a joint project.

One way to work on it would be to allow collective bargaining for public employees, and that those changes you suggest would be a part of negotiations leading to labor contracts. There may be other ways. But as long as only one side has the power to make or change all the rules, then we will have the "us" verses "them" struggle.

It appears that as long as all the power rests with the department of education and the state legislature, that little will ever change. But teachers will not and should not give up tenure and seniority rights to the political bosses unless they in turn receive a fair forum from which to bargain over ALL the issues about which both you and your allies and Sasha and her allies have greviances.

Not that you and Sasha are necessarily personally on opposite sides. If the powers that be would vest in you and Sasha the power to go into seclusion tegether and make the new rules, I have a hunch that the two of you could work it out. But few of the parties are as pragmatic as you and Sasha are.

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

I do question how you propose transporting the golf and tennis players, though. I can provide you with plenty of information regarding how unsafe those 15 passenger vans are. They are not a suitable alternative.

GIMME A BREAK, ..... Steph.

Senior Services Agencies, Clinics, the VA, etc. in WV have and use hundreds of those vans ........ without any problems.

Maybe the coaches/schools should get a DUI'er to drive their vans instead of some idiot, ....... then, in the event of an accident, ...... you would have a person to blame it on instead of the vehicle.

GEEEEEZE, with all the hundreds of car wrecks in the past week due to the "icy roads", ......... I'm sure glad I wasn't involved in one of them ........ with beer on my breath, ....... because I would have made FRONT PAGE NEWS for being arrested for "DUI and causing a wreck".


.

Stephanie wrote:Ziggy,

I like you, you know I do. I also respect you. I just don't understand how your mind works.

Stephanie, ....... it is a "public employee" thingy.

.

Aaron wrote: One thing that's remained constant is the sports bashing. One of you implied that kids got out of school to practice. That's just not true. The state BOE ruled years ago that schools can't use class time for extra curricular activites even thought they mandate gym and allow marching band to be part of the curriculm.

Game time sporting events, for the most part, have been banned as well.

So Aaron, tell me, if the State BOE ruled "can't use class time" then why did the BC Middle School have a football game and a basketball game after lunch on a school day and all the students permitted to attend?

Anyway, I only bash sports for a couple reasons.

1. The "special" treatment given to some just because of "who they are (as opposed to how good they are)" ....... and because of "how they rank in ability (1st string)".

2. The mindset of the Administrators and Teachers that display their favortism for those who excell in sports ......... moreso than they do for those who excell in their "subject matter".

Bout every student "thinks about" being a "star player" because praises are heaped upon them.

Not very many student "thinks about" being a "straight A student" because they are more likely to be badmouthed and berated ....... than they are of being praised.

3. Now maybe it only occurs in Braxton, ....... but it really pisses me off when I encounter the "HS football team" ....... standing in the center of the street, holding signs and cans, ......... and begging for money to "Support the Team".

cheers

Stephanie wrote:Geesh, I guess my daughter traveling to watch the girl's softball team during the school day was a figment of my imagination. Just as those pep rallies are figments of my daughter's imagination.

For the record, you know my daughter is a student of Chuck Elkins but you have never heard or read me say he is a lousy teacher. Unlike many coach/teachers I've encountered, that man actually does give a damn about his academic classes and the students who take them. In his classroom he displays a banner with the names of all the students who have taken his calculus class and what schools they have attended, date of college graduation etc.

What you are oblivious to is the fact that last year my daughter's 4th block teacher coached a sports team for another school within the district. That teacher regularly left school early, sometimes only 10 minutes after the start of her class. Now that I have a HUGE problem with. I blame the teacher for putting his students in that situation and I blame school and county administrators and I blame the BOE for allowing this to go on. This same teacher also took failed to make himself available on parent/teacher conference day last semester.

So your daughter traveled to watch the girls softball team participate in that state tournament. Good for her. I reallly wanted to see Buffalo win. The pitcher that transfered from Poca was a really good player. I don't recall right off the top of my head where but I'm pretty sure she's going to college to continue playing ball and as a result, might get a degree.

Oh, btw, I tournament and other special occasions are the only time a team is allowed to schedule during school time. Considering they were playing for a state championship I think it's acceptable.

I don't know all the teachers at Buffalo so I'm not sure who it is you're talking about. I would file a greivance with the school board. If he/she must leave early that much then they should't be teaching a class that period. When a teacher at one school is hired for a position at another school, missed class time is addressed. I've seen coaches not only lose their positions, but there has been occasions where a teacher wasn't offered a position for that very reason.

IM me the teacher and what he/she coaches. I'm curious.

SamCogar wrote:
So Aaron, tell me, if the State BOE ruled "can't use class time" then why did the BC Middle School have a football game and a basketball game after lunch on a school day and all the students permitted to attend?

This year? Then it is a Braxton county thing becasue it's been banned in Putnam, Kanawha and Cabell Counties for the past 4 to 5 years that I know of.

SamCogar wrote:Anyway, I only bash sports for a couple reasons.

1. The "special" treatment given to some just because of "who they are (as opposed to how good they are)" ....... and because of "how they rank in ability (1st string)".

A coach that does that don't work very long.

SamCogar wrote:2. The mindset of the Administrators and Teachers that display their favortism for those who excell in sports ......... moreso than they do for those who excell in their "subject matter".

It happens but in the end, who ends up suffering because of it?

SamCogar wrote:Bout every student "thinks about" being a "star player" because praises are heaped upon them.

Not very many student "thinks about" being a "straight A student" because they are more likely to be badmouthed and berated ....... than they are of being praised.

I would disagree with that. Maybe in the 60's, 70's and even the 80's but I don't think it's that way anymore. Nowadays kids have so many choices that sports enrollments is actually down compared to what it used to be. There's also more for them to do and they don't attend events like they used to.

I go to Poca Basketball games. Poca has a sophmore that has already committed to WVU. He's probably the best basketball player in the state and despite this, most home games are only 3/4 full.

SamCogar wrote:3. Now maybe it only occurs in Braxton, ....... but it really pisses me off when I encounter the "HS football team" ....... standing in the center of the street, holding signs and cans, ......... and begging for money to "Support the Team".

cheers

I told you athletic departments are self sufficient. How would you propose the rasie money? As I'm in the process of doing it for baseball, I'm open to suggestions.

I would rather kids EARN money than BEG for it - whether it's for sports or the chess club.

wvsasha wrote:I would rather kids EARN money than BEG for it - whether it's for sports or the chess club.

How do they earn it? Selling the same old crap that they've been selling for how many years that net next to nothing? As I said, I'm trying to raise money for baseball so I'm open to suggestions.

We've done boot drivers. They're generally good for a thousand bucks or so. While it helps, it's not running an athletic department. And it's also a thousand bucks that ain't coming from the schools.

Aaron,

I'm not telling you that teacher's name. I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but I'm not a complete idiot either. We still have another 16 months or so of dealing with that school, she is enrolled in a class from that department next year and I have no way of knowing which of the two (perhaps 3) teachers she will have. In addition, I have no way of knowing if that teacher will coach for another school again this year.

btw, I'm with Sasha. There is no reason those kids couldn't hold a car wash rather than begging for money. Over the years my children have sold every kind of over priced food item, magazines, plants, calenders, door knob covers, you name it. They have worked car washes, breakfasts, suppers, and wrapped gifts. I have always helped them in all of these activities but they don't beg in the streets.

Aaron wrote:

wvsasha wrote:I would rather kids EARN money than BEG for it - whether it's for sports or the chess club.

How do they earn it? Selling the same old crap that they've been selling for how many years that net next to nothing? As I said, I'm trying to raise money for baseball so I'm open to suggestions.

We've done boot drivers. They're generally good for a thousand bucks or so. While it helps, it's not running an athletic department. And it's also a thousand bucks that ain't coming from the schools.

raffles, auctions, silent auctions, May breakfast, spaghetti supper, ham & bean dinner, car washes, then there is my favorite money maker if this state's rules will allow it (RI no longer does) Cow chip bingo.........but that really needs to be done in conjunction with some sort of carnival or fair, both which can be pretty big money makers if they are organizes properly.

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

I'm not telling you that teacher's name. I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but I'm not a complete idiot either. We still have another 16 months or so of dealing with that school, she is enrolled in a class from that department next year and I have no way of knowing which of the two (perhaps 3) teachers she will have. In addition, I have no way of knowing if that teacher will coach for another school again this year.

btw, I'm with Sasha. There is no reason those kids couldn't hold a car wash rather than begging for money. Over the years my children have sold every kind of over priced food item, magazines, plants, calenders, door knob covers, you name it. They have worked car washes, breakfasts, suppers, and wrapped gifts. I have always helped them in all of these activities but they don't beg in the streets.

Your kids have sold those items but your not on the other end. You have no idea how little they actually bring in to the organization doing the selling. The only people making money are the magazine suppliers, plant suppliers, calender suppliers, door knob cover suppliers, you name it suppliers. Not to mention you've got 7 to 10 booster organizations selling the same crap.

I've been doing this for 10 years so I've worked more car washes, breakfast and bake sales then you can shake a stick at.

We do all of this and more. Our main fundraiser is a Longaberger (sp?) bingo which does pretty good. (BTW, anyone interested, it will be March 9th at PHS and cost $20 to play.) We'll also set up and request donations. It's all about finding as many people as possible. You and Sasha can call it begging if you like. Personally, I'd rather drop a dollar or 2 in a bucket then pay $14.50 for a calendar that the teams going to get to keep $2.00.

Aaron wrote:

SamCogar wrote:
So Aaron, tell me, if the State BOE ruled "can't use class time" then why did the BC Middle School have a football game and a basketball game after lunch on a school day and all the students permitted to attend?

This year? Then it is a Braxton county thing becasue it's been banned in Putnam, Kanawha and Cabell Counties for the past 4 to 5 years that I know of.

Yes, this year.

SamCogar wrote:Anyway, I only bash sports for a couple reasons.

1. The "special" treatment given to some just because of "who they are (as opposed to how good they are)" ....... and because of "how they rank in ability (1st string)".

A coach that does that don't work very long.

HAH, maybe down your way. About 10+- years ago, the BCHS coach was selling steroids to the kids, .... big ruckus, ..... he was relieved of his Coaching job .... and appointed Athletic Director.

SamCogar wrote:2. The mindset of the Administrators and Teachers that display their favortism for those who excell in sports ......... moreso than they do for those who excell in their "subject matter".

It happens but in the end, who ends up suffering because of it?

The students that don't give a crap about getting good grades.

SamCogar wrote:Bout every student "thinks about" being a "star player" because praises are heaped upon them.

Not very many student "thinks about" being a "straight A student" because they are more likely to be badmouthed and berated ....... than they are of being praised.

I would disagree with that. Maybe in the 60's, 70's and even the 80's but I don't think it's that way anymore. Nowadays kids have so many choices that sports enrollments is actually down compared to what it used to be. There's also more for them to do and they don't attend events like they used to.

That does not negate what I stated.

I go to Poca Basketball games. Poca has a sophmore that has already committed to WVU. He's probably the best basketball player in the state and despite this, most home games are only 3/4 full.

Well "DUH", if the fans get too loud, boistrous, etc., ...... they will be thrown out and/or arrested.

SamCogar wrote:3. Now maybe it only occurs in Braxton, ....... but it really pisses me off when I encounter the "HS football team" ....... standing in the center of the street, holding signs and cans, ......... and begging for money to "Support the Team".

cheers

I told you athletic departments are self sufficient. How would you propose the rasie money? As I'm in the process of doing it for baseball, I'm open to suggestions.

Aaron, begging for money ....... don't get you very much ....... and gets people pissed off.

Rule #1 - ya gotta give them "something" for their money.

A team badge, bumper sticker or schedule, ...... a little "placard" of local business phone #'s (stores, restaurants, garages, etc.) which you also solicit a donation from the business for including their name (but give them a receipt, that's a tax writeoff).

Then you "trade them" for a donation, ...... door-to-door, at the game, at the mall (at your job???), etc.

If ya run the concession stand right, ..... ya can make a ton of money. But you have to provide "quality and quantity for the price" ....... and keep the crooks "out of the till". They will either steal the money or give the food away if you don't keep an EXACT accounting of everything.

A "good hotdog" (no chicken or turkey), homemade chili w/fixings ... is a "high profit item" and people will come to the game just for them. But ya gotta buy the dogs "in bulk" from a Distributor, not from Krogers. Same with the buns. And if you have a couple "runners" carrying the goodies to the crowd ...... sales will increase accordingly. GEEEZE, sell them a bag of "salty" popcorn cheap, and they will buy a soda to wash it down.