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Kudos to the Bush Administration.

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Aaron
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Post by sodbuster Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:50 am

Well I have been quite critical of the Bush Administration for their lack of diplomacy and international co-operation.

But this morning I see what appears to be a well co-ordinated international effort to combat this financial crisis.

I CONGRATULATE the Bush administration for this apparently newfound attitude and hope it continues and expands to other areas besides the financial crisis.

In addition, a time of crisis such as we are in is no time for vicious criticism and finger pointing such as we are seeing now.

President Bush will be in office for three months and we all need to quit being naysayers and pull togethor for a change.

Hopefully we can turn the corner on some of these problems and have things moving in the right direction before President Obama or President McCain take over.

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Post by sodbuster Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:41 am

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081009/bs_nm/us_financial

I never thought I would see the day the Bush Administration would actually co-operate and co-ordinate international efforts like this.

Just goes to show sometimes we can be too quick to judge.

I hope he gets this financial mess turned around before leaving office.

Or at least stop the bleeding.

I just wish everyone would get on board and try to help solve the problem.

I think most people will eventually because it is everyone's best interest.

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Post by Aaron Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:51 am

sodbuster wrote:I think most people will eventually because it is everyone's best interest.

My great grandchildren, who will still be paying this off, might not be so quick to agree with you Sherm.
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Post by sodbuster Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:00 am

Well if it works as designed it will be paid off long before then.

Hopefully with a profit.

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Post by Aaron Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:13 am

There is already a mechanism in place for banks that fail Sherm. It's called FDIC and if a bank fails, the government overtakes the bank, rights the ship and then sells it to private investors. That's how it's supposed to work, not the government partnering with banks for a stake in a bank that may or may not make it.

We're risking way too much and jumping into socialism on an "if it works" policy which I personally think is sheer lunacy.
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Post by ohio county Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:13 pm

...and prosecute the son of a bitch the moment he cedes authority...
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Post by Stephanie Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:48 pm

Here's what the "well coordinated international effort is taking us so far. If this is in everyone's best interests I wish they'd start trying to harm us.

Panic on Wall Street: Dow Falls Below 9K

The Dow celebrated the one-year anniversary of its all-time high by closing below the 9000 threshold for the first time since June 2003 and ending in the red for the seventh straight day.

The worst financial crisis since the Great Depression continues to engulf Wall Street, carving out 5,500 points from the index since last October, including 2,200 points over the past seven days alone.

Today's Market

The Dow Jones Industrial fell 678.91 points or 7.33%, to 8579.19, the broad S&P 500 dropped 75.02 points, or 7.62%, to 909.92 and the Nasdaq Composite lost 95.21 points, or 5.47%, to 1645.12. The consumer-friendly FOX 50 dropped 54.54 points, or 7.37%, to 685.16.

“Having an eight-handle on the Dow is a scary picture but it's just representative of what we’ve seen over the last 10 trading days. It's pretty scary business," said Art Hogan, chief market strategist at Jefferies & Co. “It’s just unheard of. We’re getting to that point where it's impossible not to think we’re hitting a bottom."

Thursday's plunge came despite an absence of any major negative developments. Instead, the markets focused on the continued uncertainty of the credit crisis and fears the global economy will slide into a recession.

As has been the case for much of the past week, the markets fell off a cliff at the end of the day, with the Dow tumbling 500 points in the final hour.

“I think we’re in the middle of what is panicked selling," Scott Wren, senior equities strategist at Wachovia, told FOX Business. “I don’t know if we’re at the moment of maximum pessimism, but I think we’re pretty close.”

Fear on Wall Street was most obvious in the VIX, a gauge of market volatility, which soared to a record high closing level above 63.

The markets failed to rally around a pair of positive pieces of news: IBM's (IBM: 89.00, -1.55, -1.71%) better-than-expected quarterly results and reports of another financial rescue from the Treasury Department.

“The one thing about these kinds of declines is they don’t last long. We will get to some panicky type of low and have a sharp rebound and start to build a base, which will take quite a bit of time,” said Phillip Roth, chief technical market analyst at Miller Tabak.

General Motors (GM: 4.76, -2.15, -31.11%) was easily the biggest loser on the Dow, losing more than one-quarter of its value and falling to levels unseen in nearly 60 years. The index's other percentage losers include ExxonMobil (XOM: 68.00, -9.00, -11.68%), Chevron (CVX: 64.00, -9.10, -12.44%) and aluminum giant Alcoa (AA: 12.46, -2.25, -15.29%) Click here to read the story

Financial Turmoil Continues

Despite unprecedented intervention from the government, financial stocks remain under enormous pressure. The sector lost 10% of its value on Thursday and blue-chip banks Citigroup (C: 12.93, -1.47, -10.20%), Bank of America (BAC: 19.63, -2.47, -11.17%) and American Express (AXP: 24.00, -3.12, -11.50%) all closed with even sharper losses.
The bleeding stock market and continued freeze in the credit markets has the Treasury Department considering yet another emergency plan for the financial markets.

The Treasury is mulling ways to inject capital directly into struggling institutions, possibly in exchange for equity, The Wall Street Journal reported. No such moves are imminent but the option has begun to be actively considered for the first time, the newspaper reported.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson played up these new liquidity injection authorities in a press conference on Wednesday, though his comments went largely unnoticed. The new plan being considered would likely be voluntary for banks and could resemble one unveiled by the British government on Wednesday, The New York Times reported.

Thursday's news didn't stop the selling as Morgan Stanley (MS: 12.45, -4.35, -25.89%), Prudential (PRU: 33.27, -10.02, -23.14%) and CIT Group (CIT: 4.59, -1.88, -29.05%) all closed about 20% lower.

In the past month alone, the government has intervened countless times in an attempt to rescue the financial markets from a disaster. Aside from seizing control of Fannie Mae (FNM: 1.01, -0.08, -7.33%) and Freddie Mac (FRE: 1.03, -0.14, -11.96%), the government gave an emergency loan to AIG (AIG: 2.39, -0.80, -25.07%) and even orchestrated a global interest rate cut on Wednesday.

Nothing, though, has stopped the bleeding on Wall Street.

"Everything the Fed and Treasury are doing is right but unfortunately it's going to take a while to make sure the credit markets are working," said Hogan.

Energy Stocks Plummet

Once the darlings of the bear market, energy stocks crumbled again on Thursday as crude oil prices declined to the lowest levels of 2008.

ExxonMobil (XOM: 68.00, -9.00, -11.68%) and Chevron (CVX: 64.00, -9.10, -12.44%) led the energy selloff, plummeting double-digit percentages to 52-week lows. Names like Hess (HES: 53.50, -8.78, -14.09%) and XTO Energy (XTO: 32.21, -6.70, -17.21%) plunged even further.

Oil closed down $1.81 to $86.62 a barrel. Oil prices have fallen off a cliff since hitting $147 a barrel in July, diving 40% to turn negative on the year.

The commodity has been hammered by the stronger greenback and fears a global recession will slash demand for energy. The plummeting oil prices have prompted a number of OPEC nations to call for an emergency meeting.

Retailers only fueled recession fears on Thursday, with Gap (GPS: 13.89, -1.46, -9.51%), Abercrombie & Fitch (ANF: 27.69, -4.82, -14.82%) and TJX (TJX: 25.15, -2.46, -8.90%) disclosing same-store sales declines in September. The results come a day after weaker-than-expected results from Wal-Mart (WMT: 51.39, -3.16, -5.79%), Costco (COST: 54.40, -2.66, -4.66%) and Target (TGT: 37.53, -3.77, -9.12%).

Meanwhile, Wall Street shrugged off rare positive corporate news. IBM (IBM: 89.00, -1.55, -1.71%) beat the Street late Wednesday with $2.05 per share in earnings. While IBM backed its full-year guidance, the tech giant's revenue of $25.3 billion came up shy of estimates.

Thursday also marked the end of the controversial short-sale ban on nearly 1,000 financial stocks. The Securities and Exchange Commission implemented the rule on Sept. 18 in an effort to restore order to the tumultuous market. Some have argued the ban added to the confusion in the markets as investors looking to buy financial stocks had fewer ways to leverage their bets.

Corporate Movers

General Motors (GM: 4.76, -2.15, -31.11%) lost almost one-third of its market cap amid ongoing concerns about the impact of a recession and the credit crisis. J.D. Power and Associates warned of a "collapse" in global auto market sales and S&P warned it may cut GM's credit ratings, citing conditions that "will remain a serious challenge for the foreseeable future." GM told Dow Jones Newswires it remains focused on its plans to raise $15 billion through cost-cutting and asset sales.

Citigroup (C: 12.93, -1.47, -10.20%) and Wells Fargo (WFC: 27.25, -4.65, -14.57%) have been unable to reach a settlement in their effort to carve up Wachovia (WB: 3.60, -1.46, -28.85%) as the two banks have been surprised by the amount of low-quality assets stuck on Wachovia’s books, The Wall Street Journal reported. Both banks have also been spooked by the lukewarm response to Bank of America’s (BAC: 19.63, -2.47, -11.17%) $10 billion stock sale, the newspaper reported.

American International Group (AIG: 2.39, -0.80, -25.07%), the insurance giant the government gave an emergency $85 billion loan to last month, will get up to an additional $37.8 billion of fresh liquidity from the Fed. Under the plan, AIG will lend the Fed billions of dollars worth of securities to replenish its liquidity. Click here to read more about AIG's second loan

Prudential (PRU: 33.27, -10.02, -23.14%) pre-announced its third-quarter results amid a double-digit plunge in its shares, saying it sees an adjusted-profit of 67 cents to 90 cents per share. The insurer said it plans to suspend all purchases of common stock and that it has enough liquidity to meet requirements.

Abercrombie & Fitch (ANF: 27.69, -4.82, -14.82%) warned its second-half earnings will likely miss its earlier forecast, sending its shares diving to 52-week lows. A&F now sees a third-quarter profit of 74 cents to 76 cents per share, below analysts’ view of $1.12. The teen apparel retailer's September same-store sales slumped 14%.

Walgreen (WAG: 25.28, -0.90, -3.43%) is walking away from its unsolicited $75-a-share offer to acquire Longs Drug Stores (LDG: 68.93, -2.75, -3.83%), making the deal another victim of the credit crisis. Walgreen cited Longs' "repeated refusal" of the deal and the "substantial deterioration in the national economic outlook." Longs had previously agreed to be acquired by CVS Caremark (CVS: 30.38, +0.54, +1.80%) for $71.50 a share.

MetLife (MET: 28.00, +1.00, +3.70%) and Hartford Financial Services (HIG: 20.11, -4.75, -19.10%) recently held merger talks that didn't lead anywhere, The Wall Street Journal reported. Both insurers have seen their shares plummet over the past week after reporting third-quarter losses and capital raises. MetLife, which announced thousands of job cuts on Wednesday, also said it priced its sale of 75 million shares at $26.50 a share.

Data Dump

The Labor Department said weekly jobless claims fell by 20,000 last week to 478,000 -- the 12th consecutive week of claims above the crucial 400,000 level. The report was in line with what economists surveyed by Dow Jones Newswires forecasted. Click here to read more about jobless claims

Continuous claims, which are for individuals out of work for more than a month, jumped by 56,000 to 3.7 million -- the highest level since June 2003.

The Commerce Department said U.S. wholesale inventories rose by a larger-than-expected 0.8% in August. The higher inventories could indicate excess demand due to weaker sales during that period.

Global Markets

European markets gave up early gains to close with sharp declines once again.

The Dow Jones Euro Stoxx 50 closed down 65.51 points, or 2.43%, to 2629.04. London's FTSE 100 fell 42.89 points, or 1.21%, to 44313.80.

Asian markets also improved as Hong Kong's Hang Seng jumped 511.51 points, or 3.31%, to 15943.25. Japan's Nikkei 225 didn't post a rebound from its record plunge but closed with more modest losses of 45.83 points, or 0.50%, to 9157.49.
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Post by sodbuster Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:56 pm

Well that's right Stephanie. And you guys (and gals) say just set back and let it happen.

Hail you guys know I have not been a Bush backer but this is serious stuff.

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Post by Aaron Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:19 pm

So just to put things in perspective Sherm, you favor spending over a trillion dollars while the financial markets is still crash as opposed to allowing the FDIC to do what it's supposed to do for banks that are failing and the private market to do as it should for investment firms that are failing and saving tax payers over a trillion dollars.

And on top of that, you're suddenly a Bush supporter. This is a guy that, according to the left, has bungled and mismanaged EVERYTHING he's touched and now suddenly he knows what he's talking about.

Please.

Have you considered that he he's doing what Hank Paulson, former CEO of Goldman Sachs who is worth ~700,000,000,000.00 which is invested in (you guessed it) many of the wall street firms that are directly effected by the bailout Paulson has been demanding for weeks wants him to do?
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Post by sodbuster Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:32 pm

Well Aaron you are right I have not been a Bush supporter.

But in my opinion this is serious stuff.

Above politics.

I have worked hard for a long time so I am not like some of the naysayers who are more concerned with making political points.

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Post by ziggy Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:24 pm

You know, for the past 6 or 8 months I watch you folks tell ole' Sodbuster that his concerns about stock prices were unfounded and that the stock market was irrelevanmt to the health of the economy.

And now all of a sudden the daily- hourly actually- ticker tape numbers are seemingly all that's important.

Methinks ole' Sodbuster was onto the trail of something important way ahead of some of you ........................................


Last edited by ziggy on Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Stephanie Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:28 pm

Look, as you like to point out every chance you get, Bush is a member of the party I have been affiliated with nearly all of my adult life, the party under which banner I ran for and held public office. Bush is the President I voted for twice. This isn't about partisanship or politics. This is about the end of our way of life.

Make no mistake about it, if allowed to continue to tinker around with the market, print money out of thin air, nationalize industries, and swindle us out of our very heritage, this will be the end of America.

The problems are numerous, no doubt. However, the answer isn't to drive us further into debt in order to provide trillions of dollars to the same bunch of boobs that got us into this mess in the first place. The answers aren't going to come from the same cast of characters who for YEARS denied there were any problems to begin with. Hell, they're still lying and denying by telling voters the problems aren't with the zero down mortgages and lax income verification and the like in one breath and in the next telling us they're going to "fix" the problems? Give me a freaking break, man.

I'm not the one listening to the politicians and their cronies who are telling us this bitter pill and that vile tonic are going to "fix" things. I'm listening to the economists who are saying, WHOA!!! Wait up! This bailout will not work. These bailouts will lead to further hardships, greater hardships. That's what the economists are saying. It's the bankers and the brokers and the politicians they hold in their pockets like so much loose change that are telling us we need this "cure".

Stop listening to the people who have brought us to ruin. Start doing a little research into what the experts are saying. Start examining past collapses and the responses. Look at 1921 and compare it to 1929. Do you really think it is simply coincidence we rallied so quickly the first time with no government intervention but languished for a decade until a world war pulled us out with government intrusion?
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Post by Stephanie Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:32 pm

ziggy wrote:You know, for the past 6 or 8 months I watch you folks tell ole' Sodbuster that his concerns about the stock were unfounded and that the stock market was irrelevanmt to the health of the economy.

And now all of a sudden the daily- hourly actually- ticker tape numbers are seemingly all that's important.

Methinks ole' Sodbuster was onto the trail of something important way ahead of some of you ........................................

Well, you'd better not be directing that my way.

I've been discussing our economy, our outrageous debt, our monetary policy etc for a year. A certain someone, who shall remain nameless, kept telling me I was a Chicken Little and all was well. It was just the "housing bubble" and it was just correcting itself.

Well here we are and the shit is hitting the fan and all of a sudden discussion of ending the Fed and sound monetary policy isn't the stuff of Ron Paul wingnuts any more. Makes me nuts.

The GOP had a candidate who actually understands these critical issues. The GOP had a candidate with plans to address these problems. They marginalized him and called his followers "tin foil hat wearers" and the like.

I hope they're really proud of themselves now.
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Post by ziggy Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:35 pm

Well, you'd better not be directing that my way.

I have been married long enough to learn to not direct anything critical toward a lady.
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Post by Stephanie Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:57 am

lol

Thanks for my morning chuckle, Zigmeister.
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Post by sodbuster Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:04 am

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aZkUTVSfXcnE&refer=home

Well this professor obviously has better credentials than any of us and he agrees we need a co-ordinated worldwide effort and soon.

You can click on his name near the beginning of his article and read some of his other stuff.

You will soon discover if you read his stuff he is no flaming liberal, but he recognizes the first thing needed is to stop the bleeding. Fast.

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Post by Stephanie Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:43 am

Yes, and if you read the links you'll discover he opposed the bailout.

Here's a video for those of you with highspeed connections or lots of patience:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ajjwPA7um5rQ

Here are a couple of quotes from Roubini:

Sept. 21 (Bloomberg) -- The Bush administration sought unchecked power from Congress to buy $700 billion in bad mortgage investments from financial companies in what would be an unprecedented government intrusion into the markets.

Through his plan, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson aims to avert a credit freeze that would bring the financial system and the world's largest economy to a standstill. The bill would prevent courts from reviewing actions taken under its authority.

``He's asking for a huge amount of power,'' said Nouriel Roubini, an economist at New York University. ``He's saying, `Trust me, I'm going to do it right if you give me absolute control.' This is not a monarchy.
''

One can debate the merits of how the U.S. is handling its financial crisis. Is there still too much Milton Friedman in how the Treasury and Fed are acting? Is a bit too much Karl Marx seeping into the mix? Or are the Marx Brothers in charge? Some investors in Asia and economist Nouriel Roubini joke about how the U.S.A. is morphing into the U.S.S.A.: the United Socialist States of America.
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Post by sodbuster Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:48 am

Yes Steph I read them.

I put that link up to show you that this guy even though he had different views from the Bush Administration he recognizes that right now what we need is serious economic co-operation and meaningful action to stave off a worldwide Depression..

Which was the whole subject of this thread.

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Post by Aaron Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:08 am

And there are those who think that throwing money at banks is akin to throwing gas on a fire Sherm.

We didn't get in this mess in a day and we're not going to get out in a day and it's not going to be painless getting out. It is going to take sound fiscal decisions and sometimes those hurt.

But people don't want to hurt. They want credit readily available and cash to continue their lavish lifestyles.

Throwing money, whether it's to business in the form of loans or citizens in tax rebates and credit so they can keep spending and spending is not fixing the problem. It's making things worse but some people don't get that.

Here's a novel idea for some "serious economic co-operation and meaningful action to stave off a worldwide Depression". How about a worldwide sound, fiscal international monetary policy?
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Post by TerryRC Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:16 am

How about a worldwide sound, fiscal international monetary policy?

Sounds suspiciously like "globalization".

Not that I disagree, just telling you what the "patriotic 'Mericans" will say.

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Post by Aaron Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:20 am

Bretton Woods wasn't globalization, the gold standard wasn't globalization and the Chinese linking their currency to ours isn't globalization. It’s a monetary policy and as the current fiat system we use to manipulate the markets isn't working, a sound, fiscal one is what we need regardless of what other countries do.
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Post by Stephanie Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:29 am

sodbuster wrote:Yes Steph I read them.

I put that link up to show you that this guy even though he had different views from the Bush Administration he recognizes that right now what we need is serious economic co-operation and meaningful action to stave off a worldwide Depression..

Which was the whole subject of this thread.

Then you should understand that what Roubini is advocating isn't throwing more money at the banks or Wall Street to drive us further into debt in order to "rescue" insolvent institutions. He isn't advocating printing more fiat currency that will drive up inflation. He isn't advocating socializing the banking system of turning the Treasury Secretary into a king or a czar. He's advocating a global interest rate cut.

Not that I necessarily agree with that either, but it's certainly better than what the brain drain in Washington has done so far. It would be the least toxic of the proposals, anyway.
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Post by sodbuster Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:40 am

Well I figured you would try to change the subject.

Which was international co-operation and singing from the song sheet.

Again, even if you disagree with parts of President Bush's rescue plan (like this guy does), you can still support international cooperation (which this guy also does).

That was the point I was making.

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Post by Stephanie Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:48 am

How am I changing the subject?

I'm pointing out what he is advocating and what he is opposed to.

You just want us all to rubberstamp whatever the Democratic leadership proposes. Well it's not going to happen from me. I won't just rubberstamp whatever the GOP or the Fed propose either. If it is a crap sandwhich, I'm going to say so.
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Post by sodbuster Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:39 pm

Well more and more it looks like international cooperation and a global approach are the order of the day.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aP5mpMUORBWM

For my part, although I have acknowledged I have no expertise in economics per se, I do believe this crisis can only be solved through a unified international effort.

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