Cap and Trade Iceberg Ahead?

Obama plans to use “budget reconciliation” as a means to wreak radical change across the country. In this case he plans to demonstrate “savings” in the form of revenue from the sale of carbon credits. At the same time he has demanded (some say 'out-sourced') the Congress create a nationalized health care system. Since nationalized health care represents a huge outlay, the trick is to match up revenue against outlay. If revenue exceeds outlay by a billion dollars he has managed, on paper at least, to “reconcile” the budget. Obviously this is smoke and mirrors. Energy companies will either beat the taxes or invest elsewhere. Revenue will shrink rather than increase. Nationalized health care costs will greatly exceed his estimates for many years to come.

A claim from the Republican circle jerk? Maybe. If Big Daddy has joined the forum:

[Obama’s use of budget reconciliation] “would violate the intent and spirit of the budget process and do serious injury to the Constitutional role of the Senate . . . As one of the authors of the reconciliation process, I can tell you that the ironclad parliamentary procedures it authorizes were never intended for this purpose,” Byrd wrote.

“Reconciliation was intended to adjust revenue and spending levels in order to reduce deficits. It was not designed to cut taxes. It was not designed to create a new climate and energy regime, and certainly not to restructure the entire health care system.”

This amounts to a double whammy in the middle of a serious economic downturn. Cap and trade will increase taxes and the cost of energy while costs to establish nationalized health care will be enormous. Essentially, the government will print money to cover the costs thus increasing the money supply and decreasing its value. Inflation will follow, unemployment will increase, the economic downturn will turn downward. Is this what Keynes recommended? Will Obama be the new FDR or the new Jimmy Carter?

ohio county wrote:This amounts to a double whammy in the middle of a serious economic downturn. Cap and trade will increase taxes and the cost of energy while costs to establish nationalized health care will be enormous. Essentially, the government will print money to cover the costs thus increasing the money supply and decreasing its value. Inflation will follow, unemployment will increase, the economic downturn will turn downward. Is this what Keynes recommended? Will Obama be the new FDR or the new Jimmy Carter?

Cap and trade will increase taxes and the cost of energy ....... which will cause a "chain reaction" of increased cost$ ...... right on down the "social chain."

All state and local governments and their entities (School Boards, Health Depts, DHHS, etc.) will require higher tax revenues to pay their higher energy and service bills ..... and people on Welfare, HUD, Food Stamps, SS, SSI, etc., etc. will require an increase in revenue to cover their COL increases in energy and services.

And last but not least, ...... the working produers will ..............

Now "creeping inflation" is not so bad in that it "hits" diifferent segments of society at different times .......... but .....



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I'm worried that now with Specter the Defector on Team O this will be reality very soon. I hope they'll be satisfied with the results. I also hope a new Congress and new President will take office and undo the damage before the nation just collapses.

Chrysler just announced they will "shut er down" for 60 days ..... while they workout their bankrupty plans and hopefully get into bed with Fiat.

That means about 60,000 employees laid off for 2 months ........ hopefully, ... to negotiate a "quick" deal among all parties concerned.

Me have serious doubts about that.

Does anyone think that Fiat will agree with what all the UAW now has or that all those autoworkers are going to go back to work with big cuts in their “entitlements” ……. when Ford and GM workers are still getting theirs?

........ me smell a "STRIKE".

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Stephanie wrote:I'm worried that now with Specter the Defector on Team O this will be reality very soon. I hope they'll be satisfied with the results. I also hope a new Congress and new President will take office and undo the damage before the nation just collapses.

Cap and Trade amounts to an approximate 900 billion dollar tax on top of all the taxes we pay now. Once enacted cap and trade will collapse the economy, not in a matter of years, but in a matter of months. A new Congress and President, if people are actually smart enough to vote for something other than the morons we presently have, will have to pick up what peices are left and begin again.

On top of that, in West Virginia, it will devastate the economy. All the idiot coal miners who chose to follow their union bosses, instead of actually using their heads and thinking, voting for Pres Bro' will find themselves out of a job. Additionally, since West Virginia's tax base is a majority coal severence tax, Mickey Mouse Manchin and 136 stooges are going to find themselves out in the cold. If you remember they all slobbered over Obamessiah, and now the messiah is going to slobber back, by destorying their economy.

Some of us have been saying for decades that West Virginia and the nation needs to diversify its energy industries such as to depend less on fossil fuel combustion and more on natural sources of energy.

But the arrogant fossil fuel bosses and their political pimps in Congress, in the White House, and in statehouses around the country have thumbed their noses at suggestions to work toward a post-fossil fuel energy economy.

"Some men are born with humility. Some achieve humility. Others have it thrust upon them." -- Red Green

In a market-driven economy, that level of planning is counter-productive. When it becomes imperative to move to non-carbon fuel sources, the market will let us know. What's more, when the high cost of carbon-based fuels becomes untenable, the markets will find viable alternatives.

I think you are prudent to seek other fuel sources. I think you are imprudent to expect markets to follow suit.

ziggy wrote:Some of us have been saying for decades that West Virginia and the nation needs to diversify its energy industries such as to depend less on fossil fuel combustion and more on natural sources of energy.

But the arrogant fossil fuel bosses and their political pimps in Congress, in the White House, and in statehouses around the country have thumbed their noses at suggestions to work toward a post-fossil fuel energy economy.

"Some men are born with humility. Some achieve humility. Others have it thrust upon them." -- Red Green

And I agree that we need to move away from fossil fuels especially petroleum. Not because of climate change, but because the supply is finate. However, the environmental pimps and that freaks that sell their votes to them fail to remember or just don't care that there is nothing other than nuclear power available to will replace fossil fuels. A major portion of transportation doesn't run on nuclear power it runs on petroleum. By the way, when I talk about transportation, I'm talking about the movement of goods and services.

What you and the green weenies in office are about to do is put millions of people out of work and devastate the rest of the economy that fudge packer Barney Frank and is perverted cohorts haven't already destroyed.

I found it interesting that BO forced Chrysler into bankruptcy and merged the UAW into a working union with Fiat and the bottom line reason was to produce the kind of cars liberals, not the market, wants.

The fact that they are willing to break secure contracts and stick it to secure vendors while at the same time forgiving the $4B they've already given them and are willing to pony up another $10b or so proves that Obama's goal has been a Marxist takeover of our economy and placing it under government control.

What he did to the auto industry with the bailouts and what he did to the financial industry with TARP, he'll do to energy with Cap and Trade.

It would be nice to have a new Congress and President to undue most of the damage before it is done except there is one small problem.

RePO will make sure that damage is done before the next election.

I take issue with something you said, Aaron. You said: "...to produce the kind of cars liberals, not the market, wants". While it is a small distinction I think you'll agree that liberals don't want those cars either. They just want us to drive them.

ohio county wrote:In a market-driven economy, that level of planning is counter-productive. When it becomes imperative to move to non-carbon fuel sources, the market will let us know. What's more, when the high cost of carbon-based fuels becomes untenable, the markets will find viable alternatives.

I think you are prudent to seek other fuel sources. I think you are imprudent to expect markets to follow suit.

Those people who "don't have a clue" as to how a market-driven economy functions ....... will always think that any "hair-brained idea" that they or someone else ...... thunks up ........ will be easy to implement and good for the economy.

It is really ironic that the Obamaites and other "clueless ones" are preaching that big banking, big insurance and big automotives are ....... "too big to fail", ........ while at the same time they have been doing their damnest deeds and preaching that big oil should fail.

Those "clueless ones" are ignoring the fact that if "big oil fails" it will cause ten fold the "disaster" that is likely to be caused by the other three entities failing.

And that is because ...... the total US economy ....... is geared up to "run on oil".

Why the hell do you think the US is the biggest consumer of oil?

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ohio county wrote:I take issue with something you said, Aaron. You said: "...to produce the kind of cars liberals, not the market, wants". While it is a small distinction I think you'll agree that liberals don't want those cars either. They just want us to drive them.

I think you are quite correct. The other day the school district for which I work part-time took the kids to the movies to see the new "Earth" movie (shockingly well done and relatively light on propaganda). The funny part is that when I looked at the parking lot, every single vehicle that was driven by members of the liberal PTO was an SUV. Every last one. The only vehicles in the lot that were not SUVs were school busses, one of which I drove.

So on Earth Day, we took kids by bus, their parents following in SUVs, to an indoor screening of a movie about the Earth. On top of it all, it was a lovely day outside.

Meanwhile a few miles west, the farmers are having a dickens of a time because all of this global warming related drought, er, I mean, constant rainfall is delaying planting and will ultimately delay emergence as well. This global warming related overabundance of rain (it can explain everything, ya know?) is going to delay emergence of the corn, and as the Ag experts at Purdue will tell you (if you are unfortunate enough to have to listen, as I did last year), nothing good happens before a plant emerges. You want the plant to be able to get what it needs from the sun as soon as possible.

The Obama motorcade, I'm sure, is nothing but Priuses. I have long maintained that liberalism is the science of telling other people what they should be doing, unless they want to kill their unborn children.

I stand corrected OC.

What are you doing standing at a computer?

I generally prefer to sit corrected. If only to amuse myself.

My puter chair broke and I can't afford to buy another one. I had to pay taxes.

SheikBen wrote: The other day the school district for which I work part-time took the kids to the movies to see the new "Earth" movie (shockingly well done and relatively light on propaganda).

Mike, the wife said yesterday was an "easier day" at feeding the students.

All the 6th Graders in the Braxton County Middle School were "school bussed" to Charleston, bout 70 miles one way, ........ to see a movie.

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Also, in "leveling the playing field" demagogue Obama plans on raising taxes on prime employers. If, as it has been posited, that people and capital flee environs where they are not welcome and hasten to those places where they are welcome, we could be looking at higher unemployment, a declining balance-of-trade, higher college tuition as institutions see their endowments decline, and further stock market declines. Brilliant. Never let a good crisis go to waste.

SamCogar wrote:

SheikBen wrote: The other day the school district for which I work part-time took the kids to the movies to see the new "Earth" movie (shockingly well done and relatively light on propaganda).

Mike, the wife said yesterday was an "easier day" at feeding the students.

All the 6th Graders in the Braxton County Middle School were "school bussed" to Charleston, bout 70 miles one way, ........ to see a movie.

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Hehehehehehe

Of course, if Gore can fly a private jet around the world to preach his false gospel of global warming (or is it cooling?--that pesky earth!), then a bunch of Braxton County kids can head to Charleston for "Earth" day!

As long as their parents didn't drive 10 miles necessarily to pick them up in an SUV, I see no reason why these kids should not be bussed 70 miles each way, UNNECESSARILY, for the sake of "Mother Earth."