REMEMBER: Freedom is not free.

People don't know what respect for the flag is anymore. You hear them talking during the anthem, some don't remove their caps and few will place their hand over their heart and face the flag.

I personally believe that one can receive something as a gift and have the respect for it one would have if they had to work for it or fight for it. We see that today in picture you posted above. We see it in the attitudes of people.

Those that proclaim socialism are usually those who have never had to work for anything, it was given to them. They have little respect for those who have worked to obtain something and they call it greed when one expects to keep, use, and or dispose of the fruit of thier labors as they so choose.

Those people sitting in the picture posted above are those to whom liberty was given. They didn't have to fight for it. They didn't have to sacrifice for it, nor did they lay everything on the line to protect the liberty they have. Liberty has no meaning, no value in thier hearts and minds. Most would sell it for the feeling of being safe and satisfied, when in reality they are making themselves slaves to a totalitarian and imperialistic government.

I see it here on the board, I see it at ball games when the anthem is played. One of these days those of us who love liberty are going to have to fight to regain it. I hope when the time comes, and it will, that those sitting will decide not to continue to sit, but will rise up and be counted. I do have my doubts however.

Cato

I see it here on the board, I see it at ball games when the anthem is played.

You see what here- and at ball games? You see people exercising their liberty to not engage in some politically correct salute to a government that does not deserve to be saluted?

One of these days those of us who love liberty are going to have to fight to regain it. I hope when the time comes, and it will, that those sitting will decide not to continue to sit, but will rise up and be counted. I do have my doubts however.

Well Cato, if it is you that we'll be expected to salute and support, and if it's you who gets to define what is liberty and what is worth fighting and dying for, then your doubts are well placed. Patriotism and love of country are more than just saluting a flag that represents a government unworthy of saluting.

What many do not understand Cato is that those who do not respect this country, the flag or our liberty and freedom have the right to utter the tripe they do because men of honor they have no respect for gave their lives serving a code that men with no honor do not understand.

Willy, me thinks you jerked someone's chain that got him a mite irritated and on the defensive.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

History shows us that, repeatedly.

"My country, right or wrong...", is not showing respect for your nation, it is eschewing responsibility for its actions.

You going to call me defensive also, rather than take the effort to address my point?

That being said, it is the government and the self-serving people in it that are to blame - not the poor and valiant soldiers.

TerryRC wrote:"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

History shows us that, repeatedly.

"My country, right or wrong...", is not showing respect for your nation, it is eschewing responsibility for its actions.

You going to call me defensive also, rather than take the effort to address my point?

As usual, I will again have to expend my effort on addressing your clueless ignorance, ...... to wit:

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel

Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. He doesn't provide any context for how the remark arose, so we don't really know for sure what was on Johnson's mind at the time.

However, Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, .... only false patriotism.

http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html

Now I suppose you will tell us "that is what you meant" ..... even though you made no mention of it in your post.



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Now I suppose you will tell us "that is what you meant" ..... even though you made no mention of it in your post.

Why don't you give us the "no true Scotsman" argument.

Horrible things have been done in the name of nationalism. Read a book.

Horrible things have been done by Government employees ..... and I don't need to read someone else's opinion to tell me that.

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Horrible things have been done by Government employees ..... and I don't need to read someone else's opinion to tell me that.

Typical contentless Sam post.

Look at what Japan did in the name of nationalism. Look at Germany. Look at Italy. Look at the idea of "manifest destiny".

That is fact, not opinion.

Horrible things are done by non-government employees, also. How is that even relevant.

You hate makes you irrational. Funny stuff.

"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

TerryRC wrote:Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

History shows us that, repeatedly.

"My country, right or wrong...", is not showing respect for your nation, it is eschewing responsibility for its actions.

You going to call me defensive also, rather than take the effort to address my point?

That being said, it is the government and the self-serving people in it that are to blame - not the poor and valiant soldiers.

You're confusing Patriotism and Nationalism RC. That man is not standing because his country is right or wrong, he's standing because it's his country and he not only loves it, he respects the principals it was founded on and survives on.

Sadly, it's is a feeling that is long been forgotten.

Mimic, ..... mimic, ....... mimicry.

TRC, originality is not one of your attributes.

You have a Jutebox mindset.

If anyone pushes one of your "buttons" ....... you reply with a pre-copied tune.

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If anyone pushes one of your "buttons" ....... you reply with a pre-copied tune.

Sam. Your tears of rage nourish me.

You can't even address my points.

Just give me another stock insult. I really like it when you call me an uneducated girly-man that feeds at the public trough.

Good stuff, that.

You're confusing Patriotism and Nationalism, RC.

Why don't you explain the difference to me.

The difference is in the man in the wheelchair standing and the healthy people setting.

The difference is in the man in the wheelchair standing and the healthy people setting.

So you CAN'T tell me the difference between patriotism and nationalism?

The difference is, on September 12th, 2001, those setting would be standing with their hands over their hearts. And flag sales would be through the roof.

And your attempt to steer the conversation away doesn't change the fact that you're still confusing the two.

Aaron wrote:And your attempt to steer the conversation away doesn't change the fact that you're still confusing the two.

And that confusion comes from an expert at “weazelwording” and who is always accusing others of obfuscation.

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RC brought up the true Scotsman comment Sam because he's an expert in it, which is why I didn't go into a long debate about the distinction between Nationalism and Patriotism. He knows the difference, which is why he is attempting to confuse the two and when called on his BS, he attempted to steer the conversation elsewhere.

Unfortunately, that's typical of those on the left and one of the main reasons, imho, as to why we can't have a decent conversation here. They don’t want to discuss, they want to impose their beliefs and any who disagree with them are flat out wrong, which ironically, is the tactic they blame on some of us on the right.

ziggy wrote:

I see it here on the board, I see it at ball games when the anthem is played.

You see what here- and at ball games? You see people exercising their liberty to not engage in some politically correct salute to a government that does not deserve to be saluted?

I see people like you, TerryRC, and Sherman who lack the depth of conviction and charactor to stand up and be counted when it comes to life, liberty,and the persuit of happiness. Sherman is so ignorant and lemming like he follows blindly after a party that seeks to destroy the very founding principles of this nation. Terry and you proclaim your love of liberty, but only as you agree with those principles. Both of you have proven beyond any doubt that you hate it when others you disagree with seek to have the same standards applied to them that you desire.

ziggy wrote:One of these days those of us who love liberty are going to have to fight to regain it. I hope when the time comes, and it will, that those sitting will decide not to continue to sit, but will rise up and be counted. I do have my doubts however.

Well Cato, if it is you that we'll be expected to salute and support, and if it's you who gets to define what is liberty and what is worth fighting and dying for, then your doubts are well placed. Patriotism and love of country are more than just saluting a flag that represents a government unworthy of saluting.

You have absolutley no clue what I am speaking about. When I see the flag, I don't see democrats and republicans. I don't see the likes of the Bushes or Reagans, or Carters, or Obamas, or Pelosis, or Byrds, or Rockerfellers, or Captios. I see ani ideal where men and women are free to determine their own destiny. I see a nation where people reap the benifits and consequences of their actions with government intervention. I see a nation of people who understand right and wrong and the rewards of consequences of both. That is what I honor, not the maxists, fascist, rejects of a Barnum and Bailey sideshow that lead this nation today.

Like Geroge Washington, I know the government is loike fire, a terrible servent and dreadful master and I want very little of it in my life. You, Terry, and Sherman on the other hand talk a good fight, but your wlak is something entirely different. I refer you to the thread where we discussed my dealings and feelings regarding homosexuals. That thread is a prime illustration of your understanding of liberty.

What many do not understand Cato is that those who do not respect this country, the flag or our liberty and freedom have the right to utter the tripe they do because men of honor they have no respect for gave their lives serving a code that men with no honor do not understand.

When and where did "men of honor they have no respect for gave their lives serving a code that men with no honor do not understand"?

In the 1960s in Vietnam? In the 2000s In Iraq? What "code" were men of honor serving in those adventures?

"Men of honor" are not so just because they are doing something you agree with, and "men with no honor" are not so just because they are not doing something you favor. The world does not revolve around you and your "code".

They started in the colonial wars which predated our War of Independence, continued through our battles in the early 18th century, saw brother face brother in our internal struggle, and continued through the 20th century. An unpopular war you don't happen to agree with doesn't change the facts.

And in every one of those wars, your kind has been around. My favorite nickname is copperheads but you’ve gone by many. The thing is, your indifference was granted by these men of honor.

Say thank you.

Cato wrote:I see people like you, TerryRC, and Sherman who lack the depth of conviction and charactor to stand up and be counted when it comes to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness.

I have not only stood up for those things, but I have gone to jail to stand up and be counted when it comes to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Have you? What have you done to "stand up for" those things?

Terry and you proclaim your love of liberty, but only as you agree with those principles.

What liberties have you stood up for that did not agree with your principles?

Both of you have proven beyond any doubt that you hate it when others you disagree with seek to have the same standards applied to them that you desire.

How so? I have said that as relates to personal liberties that do not interefer with the personal liberties of others, that I am an anarchist.

You have absolutley no clue what I am speaking about. When I see the flag, I don't see democrats and republicans. I don't see the likes of the Bushes or Reagans, or Carters, or Obamas, or Pelosis, or Byrds, or Rockerfellers, or Captios. I see ani ideal where men and women are free to determine their own destiny.

You see an ideal, yes. But what about the real world- the world of government run amuck with corporatism and corporate welfare to the point that it is getting more and more impossible to tell where is the line between corporations and government. You can call that an ideal if you want to. I call it gross corruption and fascism. And a flag that represents a government of such corruption is not worthy of my salute- nor of yours.

I see a nation where people reap the benefits and consequences of their actions with government intervention.

But I thought that government intervention in the exercise of our personal liberties is what you are opposed to. But now you "see a nation where people reap the benifits and consequences of their actions with government intervention"? Why can't you make up your mind?

I see a nation of people who understand right and wrong and the rewards of consequences of both.

No, you are lying to yourself and to us. You only see a world that understands "right and wrong" as defined by Cato, not by the people living their lives exercising their liberty to pursue of happiness as THEY see the right and wrong of it. You suppose liberty- but you want to define right and wrong and the rewards and consequences for everyone- not just for Cato, but for everyone.

That is what I honor, not the maxists, fascist, rejects of a Barnum and Bailey sideshow that lead this nation today.

You don't honor anything of the sort, Cato. You would but trade someone else's "facism" for your own.

Like Geroge Washington, I know the government is loike fire, a terrible servent and dreadful master and I want very little of it in my life. You, Terry, and Sherman on the other hand talk a good fight, but your wlak is something entirely different. I refer you to the thread where we discussed my dealings and feelings regarding homosexuals. That thread is a prime illustration of your understanding of liberty.

That thread is a prime example fo your misunderstanding of liberty- and of your misdunderstanding of right and wrong- because in that thread you presume to know right and wrong for everyone- not just for Cato. And that is consistent with your stated opinion that there is no room for honest differences of opinion when it comes to understanding scriptures, understanding the Constitution, understanding right and wrong, etc. You simply cannot fathom that what is morally right for Cato may be just as morally wrong for the next person. But if liberty and pursuit of happiness means anything it means that we each determine or own morality and pursue happiness in out own ways as long as they do not interefere with the rights of others to pursue right and wrong and to pursue happiness in their own ways.

You gave up your claim to liberty when you said, "I see a nation where people reap the benifits and consequences of their actions with government intervention."

Yes, that is exactly what you see- government intervention to assure that everyone sees "right and wrong" and understands the Bible and the Constitution in the same ways that Cato does. That is not liberty. That is tyranny and fascism.

Aaron wrote:They started in the colonial wars which predated our War of Independence, continued through our battles in the early 18th century, saw brother face brother in our internal struggle, and continued through the 20th century.

I disagree that what we witnessed militarily in the last half of the 20th century represented any "code" worthy of respect.

An unpopular war you don't happen to agree with doesn't change the facts.

It certainly does "change the facts" of what I and those "setting down" in the photograph chose to honor as opposed to what you may chose to honor. I refuse to honor what I consider a dishonorable enterprise. I am not going to pretend to honor it, nor those who were knowingly complicit in it, by saluting the symbols under which such dishonorable service was conducted.

And in every one of those wars, your kind has been around. My favorite nickname is copperheads but you’ve gone by many. The thing is, your indifference was granted by these men of honor.

Say thank you.

It does not matter what you call "our kind". Nor does your indifference to the dishonor "these men" enabled make them honorable. Either way, I would say "thank you" only to those who told lying, political grandstanding idiot Commanders-in-Chief like L.B. Johnson and G.W. Bush to shove it. They had more honor in their little finger than those who did the bidding of crazed military zealots like Johnson and Bush had / have in their entire bodies and souls.

If something is to be honored, it should actually be honorable- rather than a symbol of what most Americans living today consider exercises in overt lies and political grandstanding under the guise of military necessity and faux national defense. And most of those "setting down" in the reference photo likely feel the same way. Can we blame them?