A question about education

If you could work your will how would change or what would you do with public education? I would like for you to be honest with your answer.

Cato

Let's see......

First I would abolish teacher tenure and compulsory attendance laws. My list is very lengthy and I'm off to pick up Kate in a bit. I'll reply on Monday or Tuesday.

I agree with Stephanie that tenure and mandatory attendance are to go. Next, I would "impose" an "absolute free speech policy," whereby students could say ANYTHING, unless it immediately leads to physical injury, without fear of teacher, administration, or legal reprisals. That ANYTHING could include praying (whenever they want to), speaking ill (or well) of the government, etc.

I would also have a school-wide mandatory and strenuous exercise for all able bodied students to start the day. Kids have an overabundance of energy, and a healthy 3 mile run to start off the day could only help. I particularly think it would do wonders for kids with ADD who we are presently overmedicating.

Here is couple of suggestions I have.

1. Restore Corporal Punishment. Make it very clear to parents misbehavior from your child will not be tolerated. Either the parent will deal with it or the school.
2. Remove computers from the classroom. Use them only the the library for research. Teach computer and keyboarding skills in high School.
3. Stop the showing of movies in the classroom
4. Teach the basics, like reading, writing, and math, history, grammer, and english.
5. Fire any teacher who uses the classroom to shove their doctrine on students. (We have that happening here. I know a teacher that is using the movies "The End of Suburbia" and "An Inconvienent Truth" to teach science).
6. Remove the teaching of parenting skills from school.
7. Hold teachers accountible for thier classroom and principles for the school the are over.
8. Allow parents the choice of private or public school.

Cato wrote:Here is couple of suggestions I have.

1. Restore Corporal Punishment. Make it very clear to parents misbehavior from your child will not be tolerated. Either the parent will deal with it or the school.
2. Remove computers from the classroom. Use them only the the library for research. Teach computer and keyboarding skills in high School.
3. Stop the showing of movies in the classroom
4. Teach the basics, like reading, writing, and math, history, grammer, and english.
5. Fire any teacher who uses the classroom to shove their doctrine on students. (We have that happening here. I know a teacher that is using the movies "The End of Suburbia" and "An Inconvienent Truth" to teach science).
6. Remove the teaching of parenting skills from school.
7. Hold teachers accountible for thier classroom and principles for the school the are over.
8. Allow parents the choice of private or public school.

2 and 4 contradict each other. In the world we live in, computers should be introduced at an early age, preferably in elementary school. And students should be taught how windows and DOS based programs work, diagnostics, computer programming and basic computer maintenance as part of the curriculum. Waiting to introduce computers until high school is too late.

Aaron wrote:

2 and 4 contradict each other. In the world we live in, computers should be introduced at an early age, preferably in elementary school. And students should be taught how windows and DOS based programs work, diagnostics, computer programming and basic computer maintenance as part of the curriculum. Waiting to introduce computers until high school is too late.

It depends on how you look at 2 and 4. I'm not discounting the need for computer education as you expressed it. What concerns me is that kids have become too dependent on computers and have forgot how to think and do without them. Case in point, go to a McDonalds and I'll bet you there isn't one kid there that could figure your change without the aid of the computer. I have sold tickets at football games and when I've counted change back, I have had kids argue with me. Additionally, I didn't realize this until recently, but cursive writing is becomeing a thing of the past.

Kids need to be taught how to do without the aid of a computer or dependance on a computer. I don't see how one can expect a kid to write a paper or do a spread sheet if they haven't a clue about grammer, spelling, sentence structure, research or the math functions involved in achieving what the seek in a spreadsheet.

Computers are tools to make a job easier. They don't repleace skills. The skills need to be taught before one can use the tools necessary to make the skill more efficient.

And before computers those same people working the counter at McDonalds gave you incorrect change as they weren't any worse at math then compared to now. At least with a computer, they get it right. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

As for cursive writing being outdated, so what? Why is it needed?

Aaron wrote:And before computers those same people working the counter at McDonalds gave you incorrect change as they weren't any worse at math then compared to now. At least with a computer, they get it right. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

It is not a good thing. The fact of the matter is they haven't a clue how to do math and thus depend on the computer to do it for them. I would certainly hate to have to shut down a business because my computer was out and my sales staff couldn't count. Being the tightwad I am, if it wasn't an absoloute necessity I probably woun'd have a computer in my business. I would expect the people working for me to be proficient in math.

Aaron wrote:As for cursive writing being outdated, so what? Why is it needed?

Seems to me that before a person can type on a computer they ought to know how to write. Maybe cursive writing is going the way of the dodo, but so isn't many students ability to write a complete sentance or a paper that actually makes sence.

What does cursive writing have to do with being able to write a sentance on a piece of paper that makes sense?

And like it or not, in the corpoarate world, computers run everything. To ignore that fact is foolish. The sooner kids are started learning them, the better off THEY are.

2. Remove computers from the classroom. Use them only the the library for research. Teach computer and keyboarding skills in high School.

The computer is useful for practicing lessons. A simple computer game taught me to type. My daughter uses one to practice her spelling.

Aaron is correct in that cursive writing is no longer as useful as it once was.

If it weren't for compulsory education, there would be many parents that would keep their children ignorant and uneducated to shelter them from what they consider immoral or unsavory lessons and people. It is not fair to the child to be denied an education because the parent thinks that is their "right".

TerryRC wrote:

If it weren't for compulsory education, there would be many parents that would keep their children ignorant and uneducated to shelter them from what they consider immoral or unsavory lessons and people. It is not fair to the child to be denied an education because the parent thinks that is their "right".

Oh, I get it, you mean that instead of parents having any say over what their kids are exposed to, they are forced to send their kids to a government school where they can sing the praises of Obama. Even better they are foced to send their kids to a school where for science "the End of Suburbia' and "An inconvienent Truth" is taught as conclusive science and fact. Still even better parents are forced to send their kids to school to learn the morals of alley cats. I just chaperoned a dance and the only place I could have seen more than I did at that dance was to have been watching the playboy channel.

Oh, I get it, you mean that instead of parents having any say over what their kids are exposed to, they are forced to send their kids to a government school where they can sing the praises of Obama.

I tried to post in the Obamamessiah thread and couldn't. Even according to the news, the school said it was a song praising black americans for black history month. Pick your truth. I found it a little creepy:

Fox is reporting that Christopher M. Manno, the superintendent of Burlington Township School District, issued a statement to parents saying the students were singing the song "to honor the contributions of African Americans to our country" in conjunction with February's Black History Month. http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/24/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5335819.shtml

As for parents not having any say, those are your words, not mine.

I would make home-schooling easier, if anything. I just want to make sure that SCIENCE is taught to the children (even at home), for instance, not biblical or koranic nonsense in lieu of it.

It is not fair to send your children into the world uneducated and ignorant.

As far as the rest of your post, it is no secret that you are a prude.

Terry,

How was your golf round?

I contend with your implication that sending children to public school precludes one being uneducated and ignorant. Unfortunately, I work with teens all the time coming from the public schools that are uneducated and ignorant. As such, it does not become an argument in favor or mandatory attendance laws as they do nothing to prevent what you are afraid of Christian (or Muslim) homeschooling parents doing.

Aaron wrote:What does cursive writing have to do with being able to write a sentance on a piece of paper that makes sense?

OH MY, Aaron, ..... you probably wouldn't believe me iffen I told you.

It all has to do with how the human mind functions.

Your eyes see printed words or your ears hear spoken words. Those "whole words" are passed to your subconscious mind, which translates them and then tells your conscious mind what they mean.

When your conscious mind thinks up "whole words" it passes them to your subconscious mind, which translates them to motion commands for either your vocal cords (to speak them) or your fingers (to write them down).

The human mind is "whole word/phrase orientated", reguardless as to whether it is a vision "word/phrase", an auditory "word/phrase" or an olfactory "word/phrase" (sight, sound & smell).

Thus, cursive writing is "whole word" writing, ..... a natural, efficient and speedy form of writing. Whereas, one-finger-typing or individual-alphabet-letters printing is still a form of "whole word" writing but each and every alphabet character is treated as a "whole word" which is an inefficient, confusing and extremely slow form of "writing".

And that is because the conscious mind must first request the subconscious mind to translate the "whole word" to individual characters and then instruct the subconscious mind to have one's finger strike the correct key or one's hand write the correct character.

DUH, and now you know why the "text-messengers", I-Podders, Twitters, etc. have created a new "electronic whole word/phrase" language for communicating among themselves.

Here, following, is an example of both a "whole word" and a "whole phrase" thingy, with "whole phrase" meaning 2 or 3 words in a row. And I betcha you can probably easily read this, iffen ya do it quick like.

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno’t mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae.

But I betcha you can't easily make yourself a printed or written copy of it .... and/or, ..... you can't easily decipher any of the words if you look at them individually such as this one, ........ mtaetr, .......... or ...... pclae, ....... or, ..... iproamtnt, ................ the same ones that were easy to interpret in the above paragraph.

cheers

TerryRC wrote:Oh, I get it, you mean that instead of parents having any say over what their kids are exposed to, they are forced to send their kids to a government school where they can sing the praises of Obama.

I tried to post in the Obamamessiah thread and couldn't. Even according to the news, the school said it was a song praising black americans for black history month. Pick your truth. I found it a little creepy:

Fox is reporting that Christopher M. Manno, the superintendent of Burlington Township School District, issued a statement to parents saying the students were singing the song "to honor the contributions of African Americans to our country" in conjunction with February's Black History Month. http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/24/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5335819.shtml

As for parents not having any say, those are your words, not mine.

I would make home-schooling easier, if anything. I just want to make sure that SCIENCE is taught to the children (even at home), for instance, not biblical or koranic nonsense in lieu of it.

It is not fair to send your children into the world uneducated and ignorant.

As far as the rest of your post, it is no secret that you are a prude.

Actually Terry, you have no say how I choose to educate my kids until they reach the age of they are no longer my responsibility. If choose to teach them creationism, will then sorry about your tough luck.

As far as ignorant goes, alot of what I see coming out of the public education system couldn't scratch the butts with a handful of fish hooks much less have a clue about the world around them, or how to count, or write, but what the heck, they are well indoctrinated into the Marxist system.

How was your golf round?

Horrible

I contend with your implication that sending children to public school precludes one being uneducated and ignorant. Unfortunately, I work with teens all the time coming from the public schools that are uneducated and ignorant. As such, it does not become an argument in favor or mandatory attendance laws as they do nothing to prevent what you are afraid of Christian (or Muslim) homeschooling parents doing.

Contend away. Of course not all are compelled to go to public schools. many got to private schools. Not all public schools do a great job as some kids DO slip through the cracks. Some public schools are FAR better than others.

Compulsory education originally was necessary to keep parents from pulling their kids out of school and working them on the farm or sending them out to the factories.

I have seen home schooled kids that are wonderfully educated. I have also seen home schooled kids that were as ignorant of history and science as could be.

Home school away. The state has the right, however to set minimum standards for the home schoolers to meet.

Actually Terry, you have no say how I choose to educate my kids until they reach the age of they are no longer my responsibility. If choose to teach them creationism, will then sorry about your tough luck.

The state, however, has the right to set standards of mastery in basic subjects that YOU will be responsible for seeing they meet.

You can teach them your creation fables. You will also, however, have to teach them biology.

As far as ignorant goes, alot of what I see coming out of the public education system couldn't scratch the butts with a handful of fish hooks much less have a clue about the world around them, or how to count, or write, but what the heck, they are well indoctrinated into the Marxist system.

And alot of what comes out of the public system have excellent backgrounds in science, math, history, english, literature...

My anecdotes are just as valuable as yours.

Marxist, indeed. Granted there is too much "I'm OK, you're OK" feel good crap that could be trimmed out. That doesn't mean that the system is a total failure.

I'm not a big fan of the public school system. It needs to be reworked. That being said, if it wasn't for public schools and mandatory education, there are and have been many kids that would have never received any formal education.

TerryRC wrote:

The state, however, has the right to set standards of mastery in basic subjects that YOU will be responsible for seeing they meet.

You can teach them your creation fables. You will also, however, have to teach them biology.

That's true to a degree. However, you may have the state on your side, but just as I will rent to whom I please, I will teach me kids what I feel appropriate. State and you be damned.

TerryRC wrote:And alot of what comes out of the public system have excellent backgrounds in science, math, history, english, literature...

That's true. When our oldest began their time in college and chose to major in math she was required to take a placement test. She beat kids from North Virginia schools. However, both her mother and I were involved in her education, as we were with our other kids. You will find that kids that do well in school generally have parents that take an interest in how their child is educated and do not depend on government schools to do the job.

By the way all three of our kids were exposed to both creationism and evolution and they were allowed to consider both sides of the issue. Unlike you and your ilk, we allowed our kids to be exposed to all sides of an issue. We didn't hide one side from them. When only one side of an issue is presented and the other is hidden that is what is unfair and what is so wrong with our society today.

TerryRC wrote:My anecdotes are just as valuable as yours.

Marxist, indeed. Granted there is too much "I'm OK, you're OK" feel good crap that could be trimmed out. That doesn't mean that the system is a total failure.

I'm not a big fan of the public school system. It needs to be reworked. That being said, if it wasn't for public schools and mandatory education, there are and have been many kids that would have never received any formal education.

I have people in the education system and it is a failure. A complete failure. In fact, the education system is more of a touchy feely indoctrination system than anything else. Your beloved mandatory education system is producing kids that can't read, can't write, have no self respect, no understanding of personal responsibility, can't add subtract, multiply, and divide. More often than not, when compared to kids educated privately on homeschooled, the public school kids are behind.

That's true to a degree. However, you may have the state on your side, but just as I will rent to whom I please, I will teach me kids what I feel appropriate. State and you be damned.

Keep on topic, willy. We are discussing education.

By the way all three of our kids were exposed to both creationism and evolution and they were allowed to consider both sides of the issue. Unlike you and your ilk, we allowed our kids to be exposed to all sides of an issue. We didn't hide one side from them. When only one side of an issue is presented and the other is hidden that is what is unfair and what is so wrong with our society today.

You are so self-rightous.

Fine. I don't need for my kids to be taught your myths, however.

All sides of an issue? Did you teach how hindus think the world was created? How native americans think the world was created?

Not all sides, then.

That's true. When our oldest began their time in college and chose to major in math she was required to take a placement test. She beat kids from North Virginia schools. However, both her mother and I were involved in her education, as we were with our other kids. You will find that kids that do well in school generally have parents that take an interest in how their child is educated and do not depend on government schools to do the job.

And I went to a public in NY and tested out of most of my freshmen subjects. My parents never helped me with my homework because they didn't need to.

I have people in the education system and it is a failure. A complete failure. In fact, the education system is more of a touchy feely indoctrination system than anything else. Your beloved mandatory education system is producing kids that can't read, can't write, have no self respect, no understanding of personal responsibility, can't add subtract, multiply, and divide. More often than not, when compared to kids educated privately on homeschooled, the public school kids are behind.

I have people in the education system, also. Meh. If your kids did so well, how can you call the system a complete failure, even if you did help?

The fact is that without public schools, many kids would get left out. Shit, you can't get some parents to even keep track of where their kids are. They are going to home school? Shell out for private school?

What is your plan, willy? You can criticize, can you create?

I think the solution is either charter schools or vouchers. That way, those of us who actually do care have a resource to get out kids out of the public schools and into a system where they can actually learn.

And if it involves creationism, so be it. Charleston Catholic has had 100% of their students accepted into college with very little need for remedial education so it must be working.

TerryRC wrote:

Keep on topic, willy. We are discussing education.

You are the one that threw the weight of the state in my face.

TerryRC wrote:You are so self-rightous.

Fine. I don't need for my kids to be taught your myths, however.

And I'll be darned if you are going to use the force of law to require my kids to be taught yours without rebuttal.

TerryRC wrote:All sides of an issue? Did you teach how hindus think the world was created? How native americans think the world was created?

Not all sides, then.

I want to know what gives you the right to force your evolution as the only possible explaination of how we came to be. Just because you believe it doesn't give you or anyone else the right to exclude all other possible explaintions simply because you happen to disagree with them.

We have a so called science teacher here who was teaching the global warming theory as endorsed by Al Gore to the exclusion of all other possibilities. That's not teaching that's indoctrination.

TerryRC wrote:And I went to a public in NY and tested out of most of my freshmen subjects. My parents never helped me with my homework because they didn't need to.

Good for you, but that makes you the exception not the rule.

TerryRC wrote:I have people in the education system, also. Meh. If your kids did so well, how can you call the system a complete failure, even if you did help?

The fact is that without public schools, many kids would get left out. Shit, you can't get some parents to even keep track of where their kids are. They are going to home school? Shell out for private school?

Frist, I'm not a very sympathtic person anymore. People have to take responsibility for themselves and those they are suppose to be responsible for. One of the chief reason many don't is anny government does it for them. That has to quit.

TerryRC wrote:What is your plan, willy? You can criticize, can you create?

Go back and look, I stated the things I would like to see done in about the 4th or 5th post on this thread. I also agree with Aaron that charter schools and vouchers are a good thing.

And I'll be darned if you are going to use the force of law to require my kids to be taught yours without rebuttal.

Because evolutionary biology is science. Is creationism science? Do you feel comfortable with a school teaching your kids religion? Any religion?

I want to know what gives you the right to force your evolution as the only possible explaination of how we came to be. Just because you believe it doesn't give you or anyone else the right to exclude all other possible explaintions simply because you happen to disagree with them.

Because it is the only scientific "explaination" that makes any sense for a SCIENCE class and will be needed for most careers in the biological sciences.

We have a so called science teacher here who was teaching the global warming theory as endorsed by Al Gore to the exclusion of all other possibilities. That's not teaching that's indoctrination.

If true, you are correct.

Frist, I'm not a very sympathtic person anymore. People have to take responsibility for themselves and those they are suppose to be responsible for. One of the chief reason many don't is anny government does it for them. That has to quit.

Then you don't need police or firemen or utilities. You can provide those things for yourself. Get your neighbors together and pay for your own roads. You don't need that nanny government.

Willy, your don't think it is in your best interest to have an educated public?

You think it is OK that a kid gets no education because the parents are poor or uncaring? Abortions are bad because it kills a "child", yet after that, your responsibility ends?

Compassionate conservatism?

Go back and look, I stated the things I would like to see done in about the 4th or 5th post on this thread. I also agree with Aaron that charter schools and vouchers are a good thing.

Still done with money from that nanny government. Look at how bad they have flawed the public system. You want them to get their fingers in private schools?

Better would be to give a tax credit for people that home school or pay for private school.

In addition to abolishing compulsory attendence and teacher tenure laws my list is very lengthy.

I'd begin by instituting ability grouping and minimizing age grouping in each subject area.

Increase school choice by allowing parents to choose which school their child(ren) attends within the district, by offering vouchers for private/parochial/out-of-district schools and offering incentives for the creation of charter and magnet schools.

I'd develop standards for what students are expected to know and be able to do.

I'd develop a system to evaluate teacher performance, and tie raises and job security to their performance.

Michael mentioned physical fitness........no more crab soccer and dodge ball. Students would participate in a variety of life-long fitness activities and middle school and high school students with the opportunity to participate in those activities in place of traditional "gym" class. Students who can document year round participation in a sport or physical activity would be exempt from those classes if they choose.

Civics would be taught in every grade, not as a one time course in high school.

There's more, but there's a start.

And a good start.

Except for the dodge ball part.

Dodge ball was some fun times.

Obama knows best.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/28/obamas-extended-school-year-dire-economic-effects-critics-claim/?test=latestnews