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Life is sweet in America

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Post by SamCogar Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:20 am

If you are a Public Employee, that is.

BELL, Calif. — The City Council deliberated into the early hours Friday in a closed session on the fate of three administrators whose huge salaries have sparked outrage in this small blue-collar suburb of Los Angeles.

Councilman Luis Artiga said the panel planned to request their resignations during the private meeting that was called to consider dismissing the officials whose salaries total more than $1.6 million.

The officials include Chief Administrative Officer Robert Rizzo, who earns $787,637 a year — nearly twice the pay of President Barack Obama — for overseeing one of the poorest towns in Los Angeles County.

The others are Assistant City Manager Angela Spaccia, who makes $376,288 a year, and Police Chief Randy Adams, whose annual salary of $457,000 is 50 percent more than that of Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck.

All three officials under question have contracts that protect them from being fired without cause. If they refuse to quit, the city might have to shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy out their contracts.

Revelations about the pay in Bell has sparked anger in the city of fewer than 40,000 residents. Census figures from 2008 show 17 percent of the population lives in poverty.

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/council-deliberating-fate-of-576337.html

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Post by TerryRC Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:53 am

All three officials under question have contracts that protect them from being fired without cause.

That would be nice. This public employee, however, is employed "at will", meaning either party can terminate the contract at any time for no reason.


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Post by Cato Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:03 am

TerryRC wrote:All three officials under question have contracts that protect them from being fired without cause.

That would be nice. This public employee, however, is employed "at will", meaning either party can terminate the contract at any time for no reason.


Really, Unless you hold a position not covered under civil service, your statement is false. Additionally, you cannot be terminated for political reasons. It is a misdeamnor to do so.

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Post by TerryRC Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:16 am

Really, Unless you hold a position not covered under civil service, your statement is false. Additionally, you cannot be terminated for political reasons. It is a misdeamnor to do so.

The Department of Agriculture is not covered under the Division of Personnel, I believe because the Commissioner is an elected position. That means there are no minimum salaries for a position (such as Biologist I or II), no set standard of living raises or job security. I could work there for the next 15 years and not get a raise unless the Commissioner begs the state legislature of the Governor gives all state employees a raise across the board.

You may imply that I am lying but my employment is indeed at will. They don't need to fire me for political reasons as they can fire me for no reason at all.

Not all public employees have it as sweet as Sam implies.

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Post by Cato Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:17 am

TerryRC wrote:Really, Unless you hold a position not covered under civil service, your statement is false. Additionally, you cannot be terminated for political reasons. It is a misdeamnor to do so.

The Department of Agriculture is not covered under the Division of Personnel, I believe because the Commissioner is an elected position. That means there are no minimum salaries for a position (such as Biologist I or II), no set standard of living raises or job security. I could work there for the next 15 years and not get a raise unless the Commissioner begs the state legislature of the Governor gives all state employees a raise across the board.

You may imply that I am lying but my employment is indeed at will. They don't need to fire me for political reasons as they can fire me for no reason at all.

Not all public employees have it as sweet as Sam implies.

Yes, I'm suggesting you whining and balling and even streaching the truth a bit. If it is so bad, maybe you ought to quit and seek employment elsewhere.

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Post by Aaron Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:22 am

I do believe you're confusing West Virginia with California, a state that had to send out IOU's in place of tax rebates Terry.
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Post by SamCogar Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:58 am

BELL, Calif. — Residents in this modest blue-collar Los Angeles suburb where one in six lives in poverty were angry: Their city manager was getting paid more than President Barack Obama and the police chief more than the commander of the nearly 13,000-member LAPD.

They demanded and got the manager, the chief and another high-salaried official to resign.

They looked for the culprits and found them in the very people they entrusted to lead their city of 40,000 people. Now, they're campaigning to boot them out of office.

Their mayor and three of their four council members, people they see every day at the grocery store or church, approved the contracts, and put an obscure measure on the ballot that allowed council members to pay themselves any amount of money.

And they did: collecting between $90,000 and $100,000 a year as part-time officials.

"This is America and everything should be transparent," plumber and longtime Bell resident Ralph Macias said.

In Bell, however, not many people really paid attention. The city of mostly small homes is like many American cities and towns: No newspaper covers them regularly, and the citizens spend what little free time they have with family and recreation.

The salaries exploded into public view last week after a Los Angeles Times investigation, based on California Public Records Act requests, showed that the city payroll was bloated with all sorts of six-figure salaries:

— Chief Administrative Officer Robert Rizzo made $787,637 a year, getting a series of raises since being hired in 1993 at $72,000. President Obama makes $400,000.

— Assistant City Manager Angela Spaccia made $376,288 a year.

— Police Chief Randy Adams earned $457,000. Hired just last year to oversee a force of fewer than 50 people, he was making 50 percent more than Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck's $307,000.

(read more here) http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/calif-town-outraged-to-577286.html

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Post by SamCogar Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:11 am

You may imply that I am lying but my employment is indeed at will. They don't need to fire me for political reasons as they can fire me for no reason at all.

So, what good was the EEOC Laws?

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Post by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:41 am

Yes, I'm suggesting you whining and balling and even streaching the truth a bit. If it is so bad, maybe you ought to quit and seek employment elsewhere.

I'm not stretching the truth a bit (also "balling" is slang for fucking - the word you wanted was "bawling"). I'll bite. Where did I stretch the truth? Prove it or apologize.

The reason I bring it up, Willy, is that people think getting a job in the public sector is like winning the lottery. Everybody makes six-figure salaries and has a sinecure position for life. I post my situation to show it isn't so for all.

I'm not complaining. I love my job. I get to study insects AND help protect the crops and forests of our state. I like the farmers and foresters I work with. I live within my salary without complaining, even though I am making less than I was five years ago if you factor in the lack of salary raises and the rate of inflation.

The only bad part is that people imply that I am lazy just because I work in public service. Sam has done it, Aaron has done it and you, I believe, have, also. You aren't alone, of course.

I do believe you're confusing West Virginia with California, a state that had to send out IOU's in place of tax rebates Terry.

?????

So, what good was the EEOC Laws?

I dunno. They don't keep Willy from refusing to hire or do business with gays.

Regardless, my employment is at will, which means exactly what it says. Watch. When a new Commissioner is elected, people WILL be let go in the executive division and I doubt any reason will be given.

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Post by Cato Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:56 am

TerryRC wrote:Yes, I'm suggesting you whining and balling and even streaching the truth a bit. If it is so bad, maybe you ought to quit and seek employment elsewhere.

I'm not stretching the truth a bit (also "balling" is slang for fucking - the word you wanted was "bawling"). I'll bite. Where did I stretch the truth? Prove it or apologize.

The reason I bring it up, Willy, is that people think getting a job in the public sector is like winning the lottery. Everybody makes six-figure salaries and has a sinecure position for life. I post my situation to show it isn't so for all.

I'm not complaining. I love my job. I get to study insects AND help protect the crops and forests of our state. I like the farmers and foresters I work with. I live within my salary without complaining, even though I am making less than I was five years ago if you factor in the lack of salary raises and the rate of inflation.
cThe only bad part is that people imply that I am lazy just because I work in public service. Sam has done it, Aaron has done it and you, I believe, have, also. You aren't alone, of course.

I also have worked in the public sector. Yes, I know it's not winning the lottery and I know that most don't make 6 figure salaries. However, I know that your statement regarding serving at the will and pleasure of the Commissioner or whoever is bogus. You may not have civil service protection, but you cannot be fired on someone's whim either.

As far as implying whether your lazy or not, you are the one that just brought that up, I didn't. All I did was call you out for the "serving at the will and pleasure" remark. You have to be the judge as to whether you are lazy or not, because I don't know you and thus can't make that judgement.

I will tell you that in my dealings with state employees, I have run into many good ones, however, I have also run into many that were egotistic boobs who thougth the world revolved around them. I have run into managers that were afraid of their shadows and couldn't make a decision if their life depended on it. I have run into the lazy and worthless also, not to mention the stupid and brain dead.

As far as the good ones go, they didn't tell me how bad bad their working conditions or situation, like you incenuated.


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Post by Cato Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:58 am

TerryRC wrote:
So, what good was the EEOC Laws?

I dunno. They don't keep Willy from refusing to hire or do business with gays.


I have never once said I won't hire a gay, so save it for some of your sheeple friends who are too stupid to think for themselves.


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Post by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:00 pm

I also have worked in the public sector. Yes, I know it's not winning the lottery and I know that most don't make 6 figure salaries. However, I know that your statement regarding serving at the will and pleasure of the Commissioner or whoever is bogus. You may not have civil service protection, but you cannot be fired on someone's whim either.

You are dead wrong.

http://www.wvagriculture.org/Policy/Definitions.htm

2.5. "Employment" means that employment with the Department is for an unspecified duration and constitutes "at-will" employment. Therefore, the employment relationship may be terminated at any time, with or without good cause or for any or no cause, at the option either of the employer or employee, with or without notice.

I will expect your apology at any time.

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Post by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:01 pm

I have never once said I won't hire a gay, so save it for some of your sheeple friends who are too stupid to think for themselves.

You have never said that you would hire a gay, either. You won't rent to them, why should we think that you would hire them?

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Post by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:03 pm

I have never once said I won't hire a gay, so save it for some of your sheeple friends who are too stupid to think for themselves.

BTW, some of my friends are right-wing fundamentalists. You should learn to avoid personal attacks - they make you seem ignorant.

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Post by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:17 pm

TerryRC wrote:You should learn to avoid personal attacks - they make you seem ignorant.

Life is sweet in America Kettle-black
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Post by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:28 pm

Name one personal attack I have made in the past month or so, Aaron.

The closest I came recently was when I told willy that painting all of my friends with the same brush and calling them stupid sheeple, particularly when he doesn't know a single one of them, makes him APPEAR ignorant.

That isn't a personal attack, it is an observation based upon his own words.

I will think better of willy if he admits he didn't know what he was talking about when he implied that I was lying about "at will" employment.

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Post by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:38 pm

TerryRC wrote:Name one personal attack I have made in the past month or so, Aaron.


I wasn't here for the past month or so Terry.
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Post by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:38 pm

Name one personal attack I have made in the past month or so, Aaron.

I'll help you - on July 8, I called Sam and Willy a couple of boobs for putting words in Ziggy's mouth about letting gays copulate in his living room. You can look up my posts and see for yourself.

Other than that I have been avoiding the ad hom attacks. Of course, they have been heaped upon me. Sam has been calling me a POS (piece of shit) in many recent posts.

So keep your pot and kettle pics and use them on more appropriate targets. Of course, philosophically, you agree with them more, so I doubt I will see much of it.

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Post by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:46 pm

Historically, you're one of the worst offenders Terry. I just don't know if you're the pot of the kettle. As for what happened on July 8th, I wasn't here so I really don't care.

And if you weren't all over the place, philosophically I would agree with you more then others but you can't stand on your convictions because you allow you hatred for religion to rule you.

That and as the conversation on residency proves, you refuse to admit to ever being wrong make it hard for anyone to agree with you as your views are all over the map.

Aside from your inability to stand on your convictions, philosophically, you and I are probably the closest on this forum.


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Post by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:55 pm

Historically, you're one of the worst offenders Terry. I just don't know if you're the pot of the kettle. As for what happened on July 8th, I wasn't here so I really don't care.

Citation, please. Show me one post in which I insulted someone without having been insulted first.

You, of course, can't, which makes the rest of your statements questionable.

Look back at the posts, Aaron, to see who the true worst offenders are, that is, if you really want to be correct instead of righteous.

And if you weren't all over the place, philosophically I would agree with you more then others but you can't stand on your convictions because you allow you hatred for religion to rule you.

Again, citation, please. I am as philosophically consistent as you, so there.

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Post by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:58 pm

And if you weren't all over the place, philosophically I would agree with you more then others but you can't stand on your convictions because you allow you hatred for religion to rule you.

Also, where can you show my hatred for religion rules me. Another tripe statement. I push against religion when it pushes at me. I don't hate religion. I think buddhism is pretty cool. I greatly dislike some of the religious, however.

You can accuse me of lacking objectivity all you like. That doesn't make it so.

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Post by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:08 pm

And if you weren't all over the place, philosophically I would agree with you more then others but you can't stand on your convictions because you allow you hatred for religion to rule you.

Thought about this for a moment.

You never go after Willy for his staunch dislike of gays and liberals. You NEVER question HIS objectivity.

You never question Steph's objectivity, even though she is VEHEMENTLY opposed to abortion and those that support it.

Nope, I'm the only one that gets that treatment from you. I don't really care, but I just thought I would point out that you judge me by different standards than you do others.

I think that puts your objectivity in doubt.

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Post by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:23 pm

LOL, Terry, I think that your 3 post proves my point, at least as far as the pot and kettle go.

But I will address a couple of your last comments.

Personally, I could care less whether Cato hates homosexuals or not but we did have a pretty strong disagreement on gay marriage and I think I got my point across. The way I see it, he can hate whomever he wants, that's part of his right as an American but there are some things he can't do. I've followed your arguments with him about renting to a gay couple and I've said before, if he takes federal money, he cannot discriminate but if he does not take federal money, he doesn't have to rent to anyone regardless of what you or anyone else thinks. You're mostly wrong in that argument.

As for Stephanie, we had our disagreement. It got so bad at one point that Ziggy admonished her and told her she owed me an apology. That subject was the Middle East and it's one I still don't completely agree with her on although I will say that I do believe she makes some valid points.

As for abortion, I'm not touching that subject, with her or anyone else.

The one thing I will say for both Cato and Stephanie that I don't think can be said for you is that they at least stand their convictions. At one time, you were a pretty fiscal conservative and if I do recall correctly, supported a John McCain Presidency but then he choose Sarah Palin and since then, you've not only 180'ed on your support for conservatives but, to me at least, taken up the mantle for many liberal spending policies and it appears you've abandoned what your principals used to be.
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Post by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:45 pm

The one thing I will say for both Cato and Stephanie that I don't think can be said for you is that they at least stand their convictions. At one time, you were a pretty fiscal conservative and if I do recall correctly, supported a John McCain Presidency but then he choose Sarah Palin and since then, you've not only 180'ed on your support for conservatives but, to me at least, taken up the mantle for many liberal spending policies and it appears you've abandoned what your principals used to be.

Such as... name one program that I have supported that is "liberal spending" policy. I said that I don't like the health care plan but at least Obama isn't pretending the problem doesn't exist.

Hardly huge support. Name another "liberal spending" policy that you think I have supported.

Civil liberties trumps being fiscally conservative to me. Still, show me one place were I have done a 180 on a single issue.

I backed off voting for McCain because I felt that he was a good compromise and I agree with him on many things. When the GOP put Palin in a position where she would be one stroke away from the presidency, I felt the GOP had left the path of sanity.

That doesn't make me wishy-washy. It shows that I thought things through.

You are like Sam. You have a grudge against me for some reason and you will ALWAYS hold me to a different standard.

You can say that my objectivity is suspect and that I have abandoned my principals but you can't illustrate it.

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Post by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:51 pm

LOL, Terry, I think that your 3 post proves my point, at least as far as the pot and kettle go.

Because they were filled with personal attacks? That is what you were pot and kettleing me about.

So, in summation, you have accused me of being philosophically inconsistent by saying that I lack conviction. You have also accused me of lying when I said I was trying to stay away from personal attacks.

You accuse me of these things yet can't provide a specific example.

Be proud, Aaron, be proud.

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