California Supremes Invent Right to Marriage

If it were only about not refusing service or firing someone for no reason, then I would agree with you.

So it's not OK to refuse service or fire someone for no reason, but it is Ok to refuse service or fire someone on just any excuse?

But the thing is, once you create a protected class, then you're creating a class of people that, even it's a small minority, will want entitlements for their class. See affirmative action.

They can want whatever. But that does not mean we have to offer it.

Anti-discrimination and "entitlements" are two different concepts- related in some minds- but still different. They need not go hand in hand.

ziggy wrote:Anti-discrimination and "entitlements" are two different concepts- related in some minds- but still different. They need not go hand in hand.

But they do. At least in America. Always have, always will. Unless of course, you can prove otherwise.

So while I certainly don't want to wrong anyone, that is overridden by my desire to not create another class of people that get a ton of entitlements. It’s just not worth it.

Comprehenda?

I comprehenda just fine and somewhat agree.

There, however, is a difference between anti-discrimination and entitlement.

Walking into a store and expecting you to sell me gas is not an "entitlement".

I am not a black woman. I am a white woman. I can't tell you how another person would feel or what they would want under a particular circumstance. I can only tell you how I feel and what I would or would not want.

I know, I was speaking rhetorically. Perhaps I refuse you services because you are an atheist or because I hate New Englanders.

I wouldn't want to be treated by or receive services or goods from anyone who thinks I am sub-human because of my skin color. I would much prefer to find a provider who isn't such a hateful idiot. I wouldn't trust such a person to bag much groceries, much less implant my fertilized embryo or fill my prescription.

In small towns, you often have no choice.

Like I said, without the Civil Rights acts we would be still living in a segregated nation.

Some people must be dragged kicking and screaming into acting decently.

Getting back to the topic title.

Governments do not "invent" rights.

Nor do they "grant" rights.

Governments only limit, restrict, or deny rights.

In the natural state we have unfettered freedom.

So any reference to governments "giving you a right" to do something is a misnomer.

TerryRC wrote:So while I certainly don't want to wrong anyone, that is overridden by my desire to not create another class of people that get a ton of entitlements. It’s just not worth it.

Comprehenda?

I comprehenda just fine and somewhat agree.

There, however, is a difference between anti-discrimination and entitlement.

Walking into a store and expecting you to sell me gas is not an "entitlement".

You demanding me to take pictures at my private studio of something that completely goes against everything I believe and the state saying I have to is.

TerryRC wrote:I am not a black woman. I am a white woman. I can't tell you how another person would feel or what they would want under a particular circumstance. I can only tell you how I feel and what I would or would not want.

I know, I was speaking rhetorically. Perhaps I refuse you services because you are an atheist or because I hate New Englanders.

I wouldn't want to be treated by or receive services or goods from anyone who thinks I am sub-human because of my skin color. I would much prefer to find a provider who isn't such a hateful idiot. I wouldn't trust such a person to bag much groceries, much less implant my fertilized embryo or fill my prescription.

In small towns, you often have no choice.

Like I said, without the Civil Rights acts we would be still living in a segregated nation.

Some people must be dragged kicking and screaming into acting decently.

Terry,

Have you forgotten where I live? lol

We all have choices. Even in small towns we have choices. The town nearest me with a pharmacy has TWO. They are within walking distance of each other. I don't think there is any ob/gyn in Leon. Surprise, surprise....but when I travel to a location with one, there are several.

What you're suggesting is that everyone is entitled to receive services and goods from anyone else. I don't agree with that. I'm not entitled to anything from other people.

I know I'm a minority where I am. I'm not a Christian. I have encountered Christians who don't want to let their children play with mine. I'm ok with that. I don't want my 6 y/o associated with anyone that narrow minded. Do you?

Stephanie wrote:I know I'm a minority where I am. I'm not a Christian. I have encountered Christians who don't want to let their children play with mine. I'm ok with that. I don't want my 6 y/o associated with anyone that narrow minded. Do you?

I am reminded of the Mark Twain quote that he wouldn't want to be a member of a club whose standards were so low that they would allow him to be a member.

lol I like that.

What you're suggesting is that everyone is entitled to receive services and goods from anyone else. I don't agree with that. I'm not entitled to anything from other people.

So, the town is allowed to get together and starve you out by not selling you groceries?

It is illegal to say, "I don't sell to wetbacks and n*ggers". Why shouldn't gays have the same protection?

I know I'm a minority where I am. I'm not a Christian. I have encountered Christians who don't want to let their children play with mine. I'm ok with that. I don't want my 6 y/o associated with anyone that narrow minded. Do you?

If that person happens to own the only gas store in town and my tank is empty, I'd like to have a fleeting acquaintance, anyway.

Terry,

The only things we're entitled to are our lives, privacy, free expression, and the fruits of our labor. We're not entitled to force ourselves on others.

I understand the current law. I don't agree with it. I don't agree with a lot of the current laws. I don't believe abortion should be legal, because we are entitled to our lives. I don't believe recreational drugs should be illegal, because we are entitled to do what we wish with our bodies. I don't believe I am entitled to be served by a waitress who doesn't like yankees or buy tires from a guy who doesn't like women or receive healthcare from a provider who doesn't like whites.

If the grocery store in town doesn't want my business, I can drive across the river to the IGA. If neither store wants my money, I can head down the road a bit to the next. If none of them want my business I sincerely hope my garden takes off this year and I can make monthly treks into the city where hopefully I'll find folks who are a little more open-minded.

I understand the current law. I don't agree with it. I don't agree with a lot of the current laws. I don't believe abortion should be legal, because we are entitled to our lives. I don't believe recreational drugs should be illegal, because we are entitled to do what we wish with our bodies. I don't believe I am entitled to be served by a waitress who doesn't like yankees or buy tires from a guy who doesn't like women or receive healthcare from a provider who doesn't like whites.

So, is that waitress entitled to hold her job. Should she be immune from being fired by her boss that DOES want her to serve yankees? How does free speech stack against employer's rights?

The boss has his right to deny service or not but the employee doesn't? You tread shaky ground, here. Why not make us all play by the same rules?

Discrimination is illegal.

If the grocery store in town doesn't want my business, I can drive across the river to the IGA. If neither store wants my money, I can head down the road a bit to the next. If none of them want my business I sincerely hope my garden takes off this year and I can make monthly treks into the city where hopefully I'll find folks who are a little more open-minded.

You are lucky to have a car. I didn't have a car until I was 34. I wouldn't have had your options and would have had to have someone go get my groceries for me or starve.

We will have to disagree.

We don't have to like those different from us but we must tolerate them.

Do you not agree that parts of this country would still be segregated if not for the laws you disagree with? Would that be right?

Terry,

Let me start with the end of your post, in reality parts of the country are segregated. I couldn't care less. While I acknowledge there are whites that would prefer to live, work and socialize strictly with other whites, I acknowledge they have the right to do so. Just as blacks, Asians, and Latinos have the right to do.....a right some seem to enjoy exercising.

Back to that waitress....I think that yes, she has the right to turn away customers because she doesn't like the color of their skin or any other reason. Of course, her boss can fire her if she does so.

I'm not the one trying to create different rules for different people. Men can no longer have all male institutions. Women sue and win. Whites can no longer have exclusively white institutions. You know, I might be able to accept this as fair and reasonable if the same rules applied to everyone. They don't.

Organizations like the United Negro College Fund, the NAACP should be integrated or banned too. What on Earth do you think would happen if a group tried to create a United Caucasion College Fund? How well do you think that would fly?

So would it be the United Homosexuals College Fund or or could you call it the Carpet Munc....

I shouldn't got there, huh...

Right......homosexuals may have one. They probably do.

It's just a matter of time as they're already a protected class in many states.

Aaron,

I was out all day.....and I want to discuss the "birth of Israel" etc with you. I know you started a new thread, but I can't find it. lol

I'm tired and cooking dinner. I probably won't be able to really get into until tomorrow. Loyd is taking our son to visit Grandpa tomorrow. I have a few things I'd like to get done while they're gone, but mostly my day is free.

If you guys don't play with me I won't know what to do with myself. I'm not accustomed to being alone, ever.

It's here on National Politics under the banner WW1 discussion. I'll play with you Stephanie. You probably won't agree but I'll play.

Let me start with the end of your post, in reality parts of the country are segregated. I couldn't care less. While I acknowledge there are whites that would prefer to live, work and socialize strictly with other whites, I acknowledge they have the right to do so. Just as blacks, Asians, and Latinos have the right to do.....a right some seem to enjoy exercising.

By choice. the segregation is by choice.

That is all that needs to be said about that.

Organizations like the United Negro College Fund, the NAACP should be integrated or banned too. What on Earth do you think would happen if a group tried to create a United Caucasion College Fund? How well do you think that would fly?

Except the NAACP allows whites to join. If you do a little looking, there are weird things out there. There probably is a United Caucasian College Fund. I KNOW there are white supremest groups.

Hate crime laws are too far. Expecting to be served at Mc Donald's, regardless of my race or who my date is, is not

The only things we're entitled to are our lives, privacy, free expression, and the fruits of our labor. We're not entitled to force ourselves on others.

Wait. If you have a business, say a bar, and I want to use it, how is it FORCING myself on you if I come in and sit down? Hell, by being open to the public, you INVITED me, tacitly, at least.

If you are open to the public, serve the damn public.

"....Terry,

The only things we're entitled to are our lives, privacy, free expression, and the fruits of our labor. We're not entitled to force ourselves on others. ..."

Steph do you really believe those are the only natural rights we have?

I honestly thought you were more Libertarian than that.

Do you not agree with our Constitution in that regard?

Where it says mankind has inalienable rights?

And AMONG THESE are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness?

(thereby making it clear that these three are not our only inalienable rights?)

TerryRC wrote:Let me start with the end of your post, in reality parts of the country are segregated. I couldn't care less. While I acknowledge there are whites that would prefer to live, work and socialize strictly with other whites, I acknowledge they have the right to do so. Just as blacks, Asians, and Latinos have the right to do.....a right some seem to enjoy exercising.

By choice. the segregation is by choice.

That is all that needs to be said about that.

Organizations like the United Negro College Fund, the NAACP should be integrated or banned too. What on Earth do you think would happen if a group tried to create a United Caucasion College Fund? How well do you think that would fly?

Except the NAACP allows whites to join. If you do a little looking, there are weird things out there. There probably is a United Caucasian College Fund. I KNOW there are white supremest groups.

Hate crime laws are too far. Expecting to be served at Mc Donald's, regardless of my race or who my date is, is not

Oh, so it's ok for blacks to segregate themselves from whites, but it isn't ok for whites to segregate themselves from blacks. Why the double standard? This is a question I'd really like answered. If the Aryan Nation wants to develop a white only neighborhood and shop at white only stores that is descriminatory, but when a minority group does it that's ok? Why? How come they can but whites can't? Why can't they self-segregate?

I'm sure there are oodles of white members of the NAACP and the UNCF, but can my white children apply for a grant or scholarship from either of these organizations? If so, I'd like links to info.

Nothing irritates me more than hate crime laws. What a bunch of idiocy. Is a person any less dead if they are murdered for the money in their wallet than if they are murdered because of the color of their skin? Does a family suffer less if their son is murdered over a woman than the family of an individual murdered because he is gay?

shermangeneral wrote:"....Terry,

The only things we're entitled to are our lives, privacy, free expression, and the fruits of our labor. We're not entitled to force ourselves on others. ..."

Steph do you really believe those are the only natural rights we have?

I honestly thought you were more Libertarian than that.

Do you not agree with our Constitution in that regard?

Where it says mankind has inalienable rights?

And AMONG THESE are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness?

(thereby making it clear that these three are not our only inalienable rights?)

Perhaps I'm not that much of a Libertarian, Sherm. Free expression covers a WHOLE LOT in my mind. It covers freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to gather, and freedom to descriminate. Liberty and privacy cover mostly everything else. If your privacy is respected and your liberty is respected than you can marry who you want and you can live where you want and associate with anyone you choose. You can select any career you desire and have as many, or as few, children as you wish.

TerryRC wrote:Wait. If you have a business, say a bar, and I want to use it, how is it FORCING myself on you if I come in and sit down? Hell, by being open to the public, you INVITED me, tacitly, at least.

If you are open to the public, serve the damn public.

You don't have to serve everybody. Bars and restaurants and other establishments already set rules about how a person has to be dressed in order to expect service. If they can tell me I can't dine in their restaurant because I'm wearing shorts than why can't they refuse to serve me because I'm white. There are lots of restaurants around for me to choose from.

What if I want to open a private club and refuse to allow fundies to join? Why can't I? Fundies make me nervous........I want a club where I can toss back a couple of Capt & Coke's and shoot a game of pool with worrying about being preached to. Would that be ok? If not, why? If so, why can't Sistah Souljah have a club that doesn't allow whites? She doesn't like white people, she's made that clear. Why can't she have a club I can't join? If she can, why can't David Duke have a white only club?

What if I want to open a private club and refuse to allow fundies to join? Why can't I? Fundies make me nervous........I want a club where I can toss back a couple of Capt & Coke's and shoot a game of pool with worrying about being preached to. Would that be ok? If not, why? If so, why can't Sistah Souljah have a club that doesn't allow whites? She doesn't like white people, she's made that clear. Why can't she have a club I can't join? If she can, why can't David Duke have a white only club?

Apples and oranges. How can you compare a PRIVATE club to a business open to the PUBLIC?

You don't have to serve everybody. Bars and restaurants and other establishments already set rules about how a person has to be dressed in order to expect service. If they can tell me I can't dine in their restaurant because I'm wearing shorts than why can't they refuse to serve me because I'm white. There are lots of restaurants around for me to choose from.

Um, we established that people have to play by the rules (dress code, of age, etc.) to expect service.

We also established that a public business is there to sell to the PUBLIC, not just the segment that they don't hate..

People should do their job or find a different line of work.

OK, so you're saying it would be acceptable to open and run a private club that excludes members based on the color of their skin, or their religious affiliation, or even their sexual preference, right?

I'm going to remember that.

If my husband works hard and saves his money and decides to open his own restaurant (this would be over my dead body btw) why should the government tell him he has to serve anybody he doesn't want to. The business belongs to him. If he decides he doesn't want redheads in his establishment, what right does the government have to tell him he must? He purchased this place....this is the fruit of his labor. The only right the government has to do anything of the kind is the right it has bestowed upon itself. That doesn't make it just.