My plan

by Keli Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:40 pm

Okay, here's the plan:

1) Back off and allow those men who
want to marry men, marry men.
2) Allow those women who want to marry
women, marry women.
3) Allow those people who want to
abort their babies, abort their
babies.
In three generations, there will be
no democrats!

Man, I love it when a plan comes
together............

by **Stephanie** Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:38 pm

Do you have children? What would you do if one of your children were gay? Would you disown him or her?

What if one became a Democrat?

I'm sitting here wondering which you'd consider worse.

by Keli Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:04 pm

Gay or Democrat--I would abort them.

by **SheikBen** Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:21 am

Steph,

I don't think it's fair to equate believing in one man, one woman marriage with hating people who like to have sex with people of the same gender (not that you are doing so, but that equivalence is often offered). I wish people well; I also believe that the family is a God-ordained institution and we do not do well to redefine it as we please. Of course, I would disagree with Keli and many others and say that marriage should not be the state's concern at all. My wife is a gift from God and not from Joe Manchin, George Bush, Rod "the Bod" Blagojevich (makes you miss the WV Governors!) or what have you.

But, I really must say that it is possible to oppose legalized gay marriage and yet love gay people and wish the best for them. I have come to the conclusion that marriage should be a church's purview rather than the state's, but it still does not necessarily follow that someone who opposes gay marriage has it out for them.

As far as abortion goes, I have to say that Keli's reasoning is dead on. I wish to God that this odious practice would stop immediately (and I would favor any legislation to make it happen--you just can't go around killing people). For the GOP, however, it is a gift. For one, it makes the Democrats defend the indefensible, and for two, well, aborted children are more likely to come from those groups who support the Democrats. I wonder if it's a kind of "self-hating" thing that the Dems are so adament about the right to choose to off your offspring?

by **Stephanie** Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:33 am

Michael,

To be quite honest with you, I have very mixed feelings about gay marriage. It is a very complicated issue. I think by now you know my thoughts on abortion.

I've sort of come to the conclusion that gays should be allowed to have marriages if they can find a judge or member of the clergy who doesn't object to performing such ceremonies. I don't believe people should be forced to do something for others that goes against their values or religious beliefs.

I don't believe the government should be telling citizens how to live or run their lives. I don't believe anyone should be able to tell us who we can or cannot love. I also don't believe the government should be able to tell a Baptist minister or a Catholic judge they must perform wedding ceremonies for gay couples.

I take issue with Keli because he seems so hateful of people who don't think the way he does. I don't understand hating entire groups of people that way. It takes so much energy that could be much better used in other ways.

Generally speaking Keli and I agree on many issues. I think he is a very funny guy. He also comes across to me as a very angry man and I think he'd be a lot happier if he could learn to just live and let live.

by shermangeneral Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:43 am

Well I think a lot of assumptions are made sometimes about what "God's plans" are.

I have heard often that God's plan for marriage is "one man, one woman, forever."

But if you look with an open mind you will see that is not necessarily ordained or set in stone in the Bible.

It was not uncommon amongst early church heroes to have multiple wives and/or concubines.

Sometimes I think we try to legitimize or give more credence to our own preferred ways by declaring them to be God's ways.

by TerryRC Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:28 am

I've sort of come to the conclusion that gays should be allowed to have marriages if they can find a judge or member of the clergy who doesn't object to performing such ceremonies. I don't believe people should be forced to do something for others that goes against their values or religious beliefs.

Remove "gays" from you statement and replace it with "mixed race couples".

It was illegal for whites and blacks to marry in many places, not so very long ago. I submit that the state has to recognize mixed race AND gay marriage to not be discriminatory.

The state has to recognize ANY legal agreement between consenting adults to not be discriminatory.

by Keli Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:49 am

TerryRC wrote:I've sort of come to the conclusion that gays should be allowed to have marriages if they can find a judge or member of the clergy who doesn't object to performing such ceremonies. I don't believe people should be forced to do something for others that goes against their values or religious beliefs.

Remove "gays" from you statement and replace it with "mixed race couples".

It was illegal for whites and blacks to marry in many places, not so very long ago. I submit that the state has to recognize mixed race AND gay marriage to not be discriminatory.

The state has to recognize ANY legal agreement between consenting adults to not be discriminatory.

TerryRC,
Do you know how offensive it is to a minority member to have his/her race compared to aberrant, perverted sexual activity. An Eskimo is an Eskimo forever. However, homosexual defines what a person DOES--not what a person IS. (Ask Ann Heche.) No one is born an adulterer, a pedophile, a thief or a homosexual. These are all choices. Homosexual is not caused by Nature or Nurture--it is a NOTION!

by Keli Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:53 am

shermangeneral wrote:Well I think a lot of assumptions are made sometimes about what "God's plans" are.

I have heard often that God's plan for marriage is "one man, one woman, forever."

But if you look with an open mind you will see that is not necessarily ordained or set in stone in the Bible.

It was not uncommon amongst early church heroes to have multiple wives and/or concubines.

Sometimes I think we try to legitimize or give more credence to our own preferred ways by declaring them to be God's ways.

Genesis 2:24 sets God's will about marriage in stone: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." The fact that Bible characters did something wrong and disobeyed God's will about marriage, does not make it right. Does it? The fact that Moses killed a man doesn't mean that murder is right. Does it?

by Keli Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:18 am

Keli wrote:Okay, here's the plan:

1) Back off and allow those men who
want to marry men, marry men.
2) Allow those women who want to marry
women, marry women.
3) Allow those people who want to
abort their babies, abort their
babies.
In three generations, there will be
no democrats!

Man, I love it when a plan comes
together............

Before anyone accuses me of encouraging violence against gays--or Democrats, please remember that abortion is not murder or even painful. (The COTUS says so!)

by **SheikBen** Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:26 am

TerryRC wrote:I've sort of come to the conclusion that gays should be allowed to have marriages if they can find a judge or member of the clergy who doesn't object to performing such ceremonies. I don't believe people should be forced to do something for others that goes against their values or religious beliefs.

Remove "gays" from you statement and replace it with "mixed race couples".

It was illegal for whites and blacks to marry in many places, not so very long ago. I submit that the state has to recognize mixed race AND gay marriage to not be discriminatory.

The state has to recognize ANY legal agreement between consenting adults to not be discriminatory.

TerryRC,

But marriage itself is exclusivist (the very institution, no matter how it's "defined.") Someone is being married to the exclusion of others, such as that my relationship with my wife is made different from that of my friend Amanda by virtue of my being married to Katie.

The question is whether such an arrangement should have government sanction in the first place. I have never cared (and I do not now) if two men or two women want to find a liberal church and have a ceremony. I don't believe in it, but they can knock themselves out, provided that they respect my right, and my church's right, not to agree and affirm such marriages. The mixed race issue is a straw man--one cannot choose to be Latina (as both of my sisters in law are) but one can choose to engage in gay sex (note that I am not talking about preference but rather behavior). Mixed race marriages are very common in both my church and my family.

I would also not endorse a marriage between a Christian and a non-Christian. I would hope that my church would not bless such a union, either, and I believe that to be the case. (Remember that I take issue with the gov't ever being involved in marriage in the first place). If free expression of religion means anything, it requires that churches be allowed to practice what they believe in.

by **SheikBen** Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:33 am

Hi Keli,

Abortion kills people, whether they are gay or straight, and Islamofascists kill people, often because they are gay.

I think it may go back to the whole "self-hating" thing.

by ziggy Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:40 pm

Keli wrote:TerryRC,
Do you know how offensive it it s to a minority member to have his/her race compared to aberrant, perverted sexual activity.

Keli, do you know how offensive it is to a minority member to have his/her sexual gender orientation compared to the aberrant, perverted marital activity between interracial couples?

by **Stephanie** Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:20 pm

Some of you are assuming that all people have a choice in their sexual orientation. I want you to ask yourself, if at all possible, to put the teachings of your religion aside. I realize some of you are very devout, and so that is difficult.

But if you could put it aside, do you think that would alter the fact that you are just naturally sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex? I have always felt that Jacqueline Smith is a beautiful woman. She must be pushing 60 and I still think she is beautiful. When I was younger I wanted to look like her, I never wanted to date her or be intimate with her. I'm just not wired that way. It isn't in my nature just as it isn't in yours to desire Tom Cruise, or Tom Brady, or anyother Tom, Dick, or Harry.

I have gay friends. I grew up in a relatively small town in a middle class neighborhood with two lesbians. Those girls were different from when we were in grade school. They couldn't help being who and what they are. You'd call them "butch". They didn't infect me, or any of the other girls in our neighborhood or our school. They didn't "turn" anybody. They were just born that way.

As far as the whole "bisexual thing", now that I have a problem with. I don't know how, or when, it became cool to be "bi" but apparently it is now. I've often wondered if it were famous bisexuals that made this some sort of fashion. You know, like Elton John is gay and admits it but has married woman. I don't understand it.

I would much rather have gay people live their lives and build gay relationships than hide in a closet for decades marrying the opposite sex and having children only to come out of the closet by force or by choice when the man or woman they have been married to and the children they created become victims of the lies and deceit.

Do any of you know anyone this has happened to? I do and believe me those children suffered. They still suffer. Not to mention the poor husband. Imagine having your wife of a dozen years or more leave you for another woman?

Finally, I'd like to say just how offensive I find comparing homosexuals to sexual predators and other criminals.

by Keli Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:52 pm

Stephanie wrote:Some of you are assuming that all people have a choice in their sexual orientation. I want you to ask yourself, if at all possible, to put the teachings of your religion aside. I realize some of you are very devout, and so that is difficult.

But if you could put it aside, do you think that would alter the fact that you are just naturally sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex? I have always felt that Jacqueline Smith is a beautiful woman. She must be pushing 60 and I still think she is beautiful. When I was younger I wanted to look like her, I never wanted to date her or be intimate with her. I'm just not wired that way. It isn't in my nature just as it isn't in yours to desire Tom Cruise, or Tom Brady, or anyother Tom, Dick, or Harry.

I have gay friends. I grew up in a relatively small town in a middle class neighborhood with two lesbians. Those girls were different from when we were in grade school. They couldn't help being who and what they are. You'd call them "butch". They didn't infect me, or any of the other girls in our neighborhood or our school. They didn't "turn" anybody. They were just born that way.

As far as the whole "bisexual thing", now that I have a problem with. I don't know how, or when, it became cool to be "bi" but apparently it is now. I've often wondered if it were famous bisexuals that made this some sort of fashion. You know, like Elton John is gay and admits it but has married woman. I don't understand it.

I would much rather have gay people live their lives and build gay relationships than hide in a closet for decades marrying the opposite sex and having children only to come out of the closet by force or by choice when the man or woman they have been married to and the children they created become victims of the lies and deceit.

Do any of you know anyone this has happened to? I do and believe me those children suffered. They still suffer. Not to mention the poor husband. Imagine having your wife of a dozen years or more leave you for another woman?

Finally, I'd like to say just how offensive I find comparing homosexuals to sexual predators and other criminals.

So, I guess the Bible--and most cultures--are wrong when it comes to condemning homosexuality? Do you think that we need to reconsider pedophilia--since a pedophile could argue that they are "wired that way?"

by **Stephanie** Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:29 pm

So, I guess the Bible--and most cultures--are wrong when it comes to condemning homosexuality? Do you think that we need to reconsider pedophilia--since a pedophile could argue that they are "wired that way?"

Terri,

I'm trying to be respectful of your beliefs, I am. I understand that you believe the Bible but what I fail to understand is the selection process you go through in determining what in that book you believe and don't.

The Bible says we shouldn't judge, that judging is reserved for god. You are judging homosexuals. The Bible says a lot of other things too, frequently contradicting itself.

If you believe the Bible is truly the word of your god then you should love your neighbor, and leave the judgement of your neighbors sins up to him. The god of the bible says so.

Consenting adults have sex. Children cannot consent. Pedophiles hurt children. There's a huge difference.

Even if science eventually proves pedophiles are wired that way, that doesn't entitle them to have sex with children. If science proves that pedophiles are wired that way, we may need to seriously consider locking them up for life after a first offense.

by Keli Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:39 pm

Stephanie wrote:
So, I guess the Bible--and most cultures--are wrong when it comes to condemning homosexuality? Do you think that we need to reconsider pedophilia--since a pedophile could argue that they are "wired that way?"

Terri,

I'm trying to be respectful of your beliefs, I am. I understand that you believe the Bible but what I fail to understand is the selection process you go through in determining what in that book you believe and don't.

The Bible says we shouldn't judge, that judging is reserved for god. You are judging homosexuals. The Bible says a lot of other things too, frequently contradicting itself.

If you believe the Bible is truly the word of your god then you should love your neighbor, and leave the judgement of your neighbors sins up to him. The god of the bible says so.

Consenting adults have sex. Children cannot consent. Pedophiles hurt children. There's a huge difference.

Even if science eventually proves pedophiles are wired that way, that doesn't entitle them to have sex with children. If science proves that pedophiles are wired that way, we may need to seriously consider locking them up for life after a first offense.

If your husband should claim to have been "wired" as an adulterous philanderer, would you judge him? Or, would you graciously--in a non-judgmental Pauline manner--accept his dalliances like a Hillary Clinton?

by **Stephanie** Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:58 pm

No, I'd leave him. He would have lied to me, broken the promises he made to me on our wedding day. I wouldn't demand the government tell him he could never take another wife because if he's no longer my husband how he lives his life isn't my business any more.

by ziggy Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:01 pm

Keli wrote:So, I guess the Bible--and most cultures--are wrong when it comes to condemning homosexuality? Do you think that we need to reconsider pedophilia--since a pedophile could argue that they are "wired that way?"

What kind of perverted "man of God" would compare consensual adult sexuality with the illegal and often violent rape of children?

by ziggy Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:06 pm

Stephanie wrote:No, I'd leave him. He would have lied to me, broken the promises he made to me on our wedding day. I wouldn't demand the government tell him he could never take another wife because if he's no longer my husband how he lives his life isn't my business any more.

Nor is it any of Keli's business- neither now nor ever.

by **SheikBen** Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:49 pm

Stephanie,

You will notice that I have never called having preferences sinful, but rather the acting out on those preferences.

People may have a genetic predisposition to all sorts of things that I believe God does not permit, be it alcoholism, abusiveness, or non-marital or extra-marital sex.

Remember, please, that I am making a distinction between the moral and the legal. While I do believe that God will judge sin, it does not necessarily follow that the state should be pushing morality (I believe this, incidentally, as I do not trust the state to do it well). The state should neither tell us that we should accept a lifestyle or should not (which is my gripe with those public school programs that tell people they should accept a gay lifestyle as legitimate--it's just as much forcing morals as it would be to force a Christian worldview).

If, however, the state has a compelling interest in the regulation of marriage (and I have maintained that it does not), then we need to be very careful before we redefine the institution. I do not care what two people down the street do (I'm sure there are a whole host of sins about which I do not know and do not care to). However, my right and the right of my church to believe that God has stated His positions on the matter and to respect those proclamations should not be compromised, either.

by **SheikBen** Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:51 pm

Here is how I would dump an adulteress spouse:

Hey honey, knock knock

"who's there?"

Not me anymore!

by Aaron Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:24 pm

Keli wrote:If your husband should claim to have been "wired" as an adulterous philanderer, would you judge him? Or, would you graciously--in a non-judgmental Pauline manner--accept his dalliances like a Hillary Clinton?

She has a right to judge her husband. She made a covenant with him and he broke it hence he endures her wrath.

God made covenant after covenant after covenant with man and man fell short every time. Many times the falling short may have very well been one man 'judging' his brothers splinter when said man has a telephone pole coming out of his own eye. Whatever the failure, man failed every time, and that includes you. There is not a covenant God made that you or I or any other man on earth can live up to. We will fail EVERY time. God knew this. That is why he sent Jesus to this earth, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Now if you're without sin then by all means, start gathering stones...

by **Stephanie** Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:51 pm

SheikBen wrote:Stephanie,

You will notice that I have never called having preferences sinful, but rather the acting out on those preferences.

People may have a genetic predisposition to all sorts of things that I believe God does not permit, be it alcoholism, abusiveness, or non-marital or extra-marital sex.

Remember, please, that I am making a distinction between the moral and the legal. While I do believe that God will judge sin, it does not necessarily follow that the state should be pushing morality (I believe this, incidentally, as I do not trust the state to do it well). The state should neither tell us that we should accept a lifestyle or should not (which is my gripe with those public school programs that tell people they should accept a gay lifestyle as legitimate--it's just as much forcing morals as it would be to force a Christian worldview).

If, however, the state has a compelling interest in the regulation of marriage (and I have maintained that it does not), then we need to be very careful before we redefine the institution. I do not care what two people down the street do (I'm sure there are a whole host of sins about which I do not know and do not care to). However, my right and the right of my church to believe that God has stated His positions on the matter and to respect those proclamations should not be compromised, either.

You know I'm not a huge fan of public schools, Michael. However, I think if they're going to have these young people captive for a substantial portion of their youth, teaching them to be accepting and respectful of others isn't a bad thing.

My problem with your stance is that when parents teach this attitude to their children, or when members of the clergy preach this to their congregations, they are perpetuating discrimination. When you teach your children that homosexuality is a sin, you are teaching them that members of that community aren't as "good" as they are.

Take a look at the posts Rev. Terri has posted here. I genuinely fear what youngsters in his congregation are being taught about homosexuals and how they should be viewed and treated.

If there is a god who is the maker of all that is seen and unseen and loves us all, then he made gay people too, and he must love them. I can't imagine a god like that would want his followers to treat some of his children as less important, or less valuable, or less human, than the others.

by ziggy Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:10 pm

Aaron wrote:
Keli wrote:If your husband should claim to have been "wired" as an adulterous philanderer, would you judge him? Or, would you graciously--in a non-judgmental Pauline manner--accept his dalliances like a Hillary Clinton?

She has a right to judge her husband. She made a covenant with him and he broke it hence he endures her wrath.

Yes, but only HER wrath. Once she forgives him to the point of trying to move on with life, it is no one else's business whether she reconciled with him or kicked his butt to the curb. It's their business- and no one else's.

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