Teacher Absences Bad for Education?

wvsasha wrote:

wvsasha wrote:They have to have an education degree. Experience in the classroom can be anything from nothing to minimal to an abundance. The degree weighs the most.

I want to rephrase something without just editing the original post since Aaron already responded to it -- administrators must have an Administrative degree above the original education degree. This puts them at the master's level of degrees and education.

Many are also attempting doctorate level courses as well.

But one thing that is not required is experience. Aren't all principals in fact former teachers that got an administrative degree?

There have been numerous studies that link employee performance directly to that of their front line supervisors. I submit that many of the failings of teachers are directly correlated back to principals beginning with accountability.

Beyond that, how many employees in decision making positions at the county BOE are former teachers?

We feed and watch the birds too! Do you participate in the backyard bird count? We did it for the first time last year. We all find watching the birds very relaxing. It is what I have been using to replace watching the ocean.

Aaron wrote:I'll put my knowledge up there with yours any day of the week.

Oh, but we do that EVERY day of the week here anyway- thanks to Stephanie.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:I'll put my knowledge up there with yours any day of the week.

Oh, but we do that EVERY day of the week here anyway- thanks to Stephanie.

I posted my thought on why teachers aren’t as underpaid as the want to make out. Since that post, you’ve questioned whether (my-WFT is that) professionals would last one day in school, stated that I have a ‘very little bit’ of knowledge, commented to Stephanie about not ‘whitewashing bad points’, stated West Virginia’s cost of living ranking, and thanked Stephanie for setting up this forum.

Interestingly enough, you didn’t dispute not one single fact that I posted. Why so

Aaron wrote:I posted my thought on why teachers aren’t as underpaid as the want to make out. Since that post, you’ve questioned whether (my-WFT is that) professionals would last one day in school, stated that I have a ‘very little bit’ of knowledge, commented to Stephanie about not ‘whitewashing bad points’, stated West Virginia’s cost of living ranking, and thanked Stephanie for setting up this forum.

Interestingly enough, you didn’t dispute not one single fact that I posted. Why so

Because you do not post facts. You post your opinion, or, as you say above, you "thoughts", but then call it "facts", and when called on it you state that it's "good enough for the Gazette fourms", or "good enough for me", or some such gibberish.
Disputing your "facts" is like trying to dispute my wife's "facts" when all you or she want is to argue about whose opinion is best.

So if you got facts, as the man says, bring 'em on.

But your opinion, nor my opinion, nor Stepahnie's opinion, nor anyone's opinion does not "facts" make.

Yeppers, Ziggy...............

and we all know what opinions are like

Aaron wrote:Whether other professionals can last as a teacher or not is not the topic of this conversation. Teachers pay is.

You are the one who brought other "professionals" into this discussion for purposes of salary comparisons. And that's OK. But if you're going to compare salariues and benefits, then comparing the work load and who could perform what kinds of work is also OK.

If those other professionals have such lousy working hours and lousy salaries compared to teachers, then why aren't they going in droves to apply to be teachers?

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:Whether other professionals can last as a teacher or not is not the topic of this conversation. Teachers pay is.

You are the one who brought other "professionals" into this discussion for purposes of salary comparisons. And that's OK. But if you're going to compare salariues and benefits, then comparing the work load and who could perform what kinds of work is also OK.

If those other professionals have such lousy working hours and lousy salaries compared to teachers, then why aren't they going in droves to apply to be teachers?

Some of them are. My CPA cousin recently got emergency certification to teach in RI. She took a huge cut in pay in leaving the private firm she worked for, but now she actually has time to spend with her 3 children and she swears it is a lot less stressful teaching high school math than dealing with the IRS and all the other bs that went along with her profession of 20 years. She isn't the only person I know to have done this, just the most recent.

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Stephanie wrote:I think the bottom line is if teachers want to make the kind of money teachers in Connecticut make, they need to move to Connecticut. The markets are just too different and while they will surely make much more money, their expenses will be much, much higher and they may just find that their quality of life is reduced in the process.

You seem to suggest that cost of living is relevant to salaries, right?

Last I looked it up, WV was 29th in cost of living. I'd bet you that Sasha would be tickled pink to be paid at the 29th from highest level on the scale of state by state teacher salaries.

And I'd be tickeld pink if our children were testing 29th in the nation.

You want everything to be equal by comparison. But all testing is not equal. All parenting is not equal. All nurturing for learning is not equal. All abilities are not equal. All socio-economic communities from where students spring forth are not equal.

If I gave you a 5 gallon bucket of potatoes and a 5 gallon bucket of lettuce, you would complain because the weights were not equal.

Whether apples & oranges, or potatoes & lettuce, or schools in one state or community vis-a-vis schools in another state or community, we cannot expect everything to always be "equal" for purposes of comparison.

Stephanie wrote:My CPA cousin recently got emergency certification to teach in RI. She took a huge cut in pay in leaving the private firm she worked for, but now she actually has time to spend with her 3 children and she swears it is a lot less stressful teaching high school math than dealing with the IRS and all the other bs that went along with her profession of 20 years. She isn't the only person I know to have done this, just the most recent.

There is an unmet demand for qualified math teachers in West Virginia. Maybe boards of education should recruit at CPA firms for math teachers.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:I posted my thought on why teachers aren’t as underpaid as the want to make out. Since that post, you’ve questioned whether (my-WFT is that) professionals would last one day in school, stated that I have a ‘very little bit’ of knowledge, commented to Stephanie about not ‘whitewashing bad points’, stated West Virginia’s cost of living ranking, and thanked Stephanie for setting up this forum.

Interestingly enough, you didn’t dispute not one single fact that I posted. Why so

Because you do not post facts. You post your opinion, or, as you say above, you "thoughts", but then call it "facts", and when called on it you state that it's "good enough for the Gazette fourms", or "good enough for me", or some such gibberish.
Disputing your "facts" is like trying to dispute my wife's "facts" when all you or she want is to argue about whose opinion is best.

So if you got facts, as the man says, bring 'em on.

But your opinion, nor my opinion, nor Stepahnie's opinion, nor anyone's opinion does not "facts" make.

You dispute that teachers work on average 36 to 38 weeks or on average 8 to 9 hours a day? It's common knowledge that students go to school 180 days which equates to 36 weeks plus one week before and after school. Those are undisputed facts, unless of course you're disputing them. So are you disputing those facts?

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:Whether other professionals can last as a teacher or not is not the topic of this conversation. Teachers pay is.

You are the one who brought other "professionals" into this discussion for purposes of salary comparisons. And that's OK. But if you're going to compare salariues and benefits, then comparing the work load and who could perform what kinds of work is also OK.

If those other professionals have such lousy working hours and lousy salaries compared to teachers, then why aren't they going in droves to apply to be teachers?

Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. Your dad was a teacher. Why weren't you one? The only way who is or isn't cut out to be a teacher has any relevency in this converstaion is if it's getting rid of the incompetant ones. Whether some engineer with Dow or a nurse with CAMC could teach is not relevant.

The bottom line is, you can't say what other professionals would or would not make it in teaching any more then I can. And you know it but that wasn't your intention. You threw that out there as a diversionary tactic because you simply can't dispute the pure and unbiased facts that I stated.

ziggy wrote:
You want everything to be equal by comparison. But all testing is not equal. All parenting is not equal. All nurturing for learning is not equal. All abilities are not equal. All socio-economic communities from where students spring forth are not equal.

If I gave you a 5 gallon bucket of potatoes and a 5 gallon bucket of lettuce, you would complain because the weights were not equal.

Whether apples & oranges, or potatoes & lettuce, or schools in one state or community vis-a-vis schools in another state or community, we cannot expect everything to always be "equal" for purposes of comparison.

If teachers are going to use where we rank nationally for the purpose of pay then I most certainly have a right to expect to get a better product for what I'm paying.

ziggy wrote:

Stephanie wrote:My CPA cousin recently got emergency certification to teach in RI. She took a huge cut in pay in leaving the private firm she worked for, but now she actually has time to spend with her 3 children and she swears it is a lot less stressful teaching high school math than dealing with the IRS and all the other bs that went along with her profession of 20 years. She isn't the only person I know to have done this, just the most recent.

There is an unmet demand for qualified math teachers in West Virginia. Maybe boards of education should recruit at CPA firms for math teachers.

Maybe West Virginia should do away with the way we pay teachers by giving more money to math and science teachers and less to PE and Drivers Ed teachers. Then they could compete with some CPA firms for employees.

Aaron wrote:You dispute that teachers work on average 36 to 38 weeks or on average 8 to 9 hours a day? It's common knowledge that students go to school 180 days which equates to 36 weeks plus one week before and after school. Those are undisputed facts, unless of course you're disputing them. So are you disputing those facts?

Any reasonably proficient 6th grade math student could have told you that, Sherlock. Is that all the "undisputed facts" you got?

Aaron wrote:If teachers are going to use where we rank nationally for the purpose of pay then I most certainly have a right to expect to get a better product for what I'm paying.

"Better" compared to what?

Measured by what?

Measured against what?

With allowances that allow for differences in how many and which attendent influences?

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:If teachers are going to use where we rank nationally for the purpose of pay then I most certainly have a right to expect to get a better product for what I'm paying.

"Better" compared to what?

Measured by what?

Measured against what?

With allowances that allow for differences in how many and which attendent influences?

You know I'm one of those pie in the sky kind of people who honestly believe that children possess unlimited potential. Sure there are youngsters with disabilities and kids who come from homes with parents who won't, or even can't, read them books or even just treat them with love and respect. That is true in West Virginia and every other state in the nation.

So I have to ask, Ziggy, are you suggesting that children from West Virginia are collectively not as intelligent as their peers in other states who consistantly out perform them? By the questions you pose to Aaron that sure sounds like what you're suggesting.

Or perhaps you're suggesting instead that WV teachers face challenges that are greater than their counterparts in other states. Like somehow you think that poverty and lousy parents are somehow unique to this state. Or perhaps you think that money is the solution to all the problems we face.

Money can't solve everything and I do think it is fair to tie student achievement to teacher compensation. Teachers who are talented and dedicated find ways to overcome the obstacles they face.

I also think it is wise to consider paying teachers qualified to teach AP Calculus more than the PE teacher or the Home Ec teacher. That is the way the free market attracts people to various fields of expertise. It works in the business world and there is no reason to believe it couldn't work in public schools too.

wvsasha wrote:

Aaron wrote:BOE's are elected. As Stephanie said, that's the price you pay for using our tax dollars.

Your direct supervisor is your principal. Tell us Sasha becasue I don't know the exact requirements, how does an individual become a principal of a school in West Virginia? I believe one requirement is that person must be a teacher first, correct?

They have to have an education degree. Experience in the classroom can be anything from nothing to minimal to an abundance. The degree weighs the most.

My worst nightmare in college were the education professors who got their BA, straight to the MA, and onto a PhD without spending more than student teaching time in a classroom. How can they "teach how to teach" when they never have?

Many administrators are in similar boats with pretty pathetic paddles.

And the students worst nightmares in public schools are that 98%+- of all Teachers who got their HSD, straight to their AB and onto a Teaching job without ever knowing how the “non-educational world” really functions ……. but think they are teaching the students what they need to exist in that “non-educational world”.

How can they "teach what is required" when they never experienced it?

Just how in hell can a group of Educators determine among themselves …… what a student needs to know to acquire gainful employment and be successful in the “outside-of-educational world”?

A few part-time or summer jobs does not count as "experience".

,

wvsasha wrote:

Aaron wrote:

wvsasha wrote:They have to have an education degree. Experience in the classroom can be anything from nothing to minimal to an abundance. The degree weighs the most.

Principals aren't teachers. They're front line managers of multi million dollar 'factories' and they're failing miserably. I honestly believe that is the number one problem in education is there are too many principals that have no idea how to manage the 'business' they've been intrusted with and out children are the one's that suffer the most.

I want to rephrase something without just editing the original post since Aaron already responded to it -- administrators must have an Administrative degree above the original education degree. This puts them at the master's level of degrees and education.

Many are also attempting doctorate level courses as well.

To combine and reply to both posts:

Most all Principals were currently employed Teachers prior to applying for and being hired for that position.

Most all Principals gained their Administrative degrees long before there was a “job opening” for which they could apply. So, it was “teaching as usual” until that time came.

And Principals are not hired for that job because of their knowledge, experience and or ability to be an effective “front line manager of a multi million dollar 'factory', ……. they are chosen solely on the basis of their providing proof of having an Administrative degree, years tenure and that the Superintendent and/or Board Members like them.

And those Principals are failing miserably as “front line managers” because their earning of an Administrative degree only taught them how to “manage the paperwork” per say (conform to policy).

And monitoring or insuring that the other employees in the school they are Principal of are “actually doing their job” …… is not “policy” in any of the WV schools.

.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:You dispute that teachers work on average 36 to 38 weeks or on average 8 to 9 hours a day? It's common knowledge that students go to school 180 days which equates to 36 weeks plus one week before and after school. Those are undisputed facts, unless of course you're disputing them. So are you disputing those facts?

Any reasonably proficient 6th grade math student could have told you that, Sherlock. Is that all the "undisputed facts" you got?

So which part of my assessment are you disputing holmes?

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:Whether other professionals can last as a teacher or not is not the topic of this conversation. Teachers pay is.

You are the one who brought other "professionals" into this discussion for purposes of salary comparisons. And that's OK. But if you're going to compare salariues and benefits, then comparing the work load and who could perform what kinds of work is also OK.

If those other professionals have such lousy working hours and lousy salaries compared to teachers, then why aren't they going in droves to apply to be teachers?

Why that question was down right plumb silly.

And to prove my point I will "rephrase it" back to you, to wit:

If the Teachers in WV have such lousy working hours and lousy salaries compared to other professionals, then why aren't they going in droves to apply to be Private Sector employees ........ starting out at the BOTTOM of the pay scale?

Aaron wrote:You dispute that teachers work on average 36 to 38 weeks or on average 8 to 9 hours a day? It's common knowledge that students go to school 180 days which equates to 36 weeks plus one week before and after school. Those are undisputed facts, unless of course you're disputing them. So are you disputing those facts?

The 38 weeks that we work during the school year are simply the ones for which we are compensated. Most of us will at some point during the summer, take quite a bit of time to work on the upcoming school years' curriculum - especially if there has been a new textbook adoption. And this is unpaid time. Yes, it is our choice to do this - but it makes the school year a whole lot more meaningful.

Every time I even go on vacation I'm thinking how can I bring some of this experience back with me to share with my students? I am the bane of existence for park rangers - I keep pestering them for freebie educational materials. Do I and other teachers have to do this? Are we reimbursed for the things we purchase out of pocket to enrich our rooms - a very small percentage is able to taken off our taxes and I"m not sure we get that this year anymore.

Just think what would happen to the schools and classrooms if teachers worked only to the letter of their contract? And no one agreed to take on extra duty contracts?

No chaperoning for proms, field trips, dances, after school activities, tutoring, no clubs, no workshops enriching the teacher to enrich the classroom, no extra lunch duties for supervising in the cafeteria, and so on.

Who is going to get hurt by this? The students of course - which is why a movement like this wouldn't go very far - but teachers are tired of being taken advantage of with "it's for the good of the students" and consistently giving up our time and not being compensated.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:If teachers are going to use where we rank nationally for the purpose of pay then I most certainly have a right to expect to get a better product for what I'm paying.

"Better" compared to what?

Measured by what?

Measured against what?

With allowances that allow for differences in how many and which attendent influences?

Compared to what we now have.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:You dispute that teachers work on average 36 to 38 weeks or on average 8 to 9 hours a day? It's common knowledge that students go to school 180 days which equates to 36 weeks plus one week before and after school. Those are undisputed facts, unless of course you're disputing them. So are you disputing those facts?

Any reasonably proficient 6th grade math student could have told you that, Sherlock. Is that all the "undisputed facts" you got?

Well now, I hafta correct Aaron ....... but I can't very well correct Ziggy's proficiency.

A classroom Teacher's base salary is for 200 days which equates to "40 5-day weeks".

But now don't attempt to equate that base salary to the actual "bi-monthly pay" that all Teachers are paid.

And don't attempt to equate that 200 days to actual or total "working hours" for a Teacher.

Students are mandated by Law to have 180 Instructional Days which equates to "36 5-day weeks.

But now don't attempt to equate that to actual or total "working hours" for a Teacher.

By my rough guess, the students would be lucky if they get 150 Instructional Days per year.

And their "test rankings" substantiate my guessing as being quite accurate.

cheers

wvsasha wrote:

Aaron wrote:You dispute that teachers work on average 36 to 38 weeks or on average 8 to 9 hours a day? It's common knowledge that students go to school 180 days which equates to 36 weeks plus one week before and after school. Those are undisputed facts, unless of course you're disputing them. So are you disputing those facts?

The 38 weeks that we work during the school year are simply the ones for which we are compensated. Most of us will at some point during the summer, take quite a bit of time to work on the upcoming school years' curriculum - especially if there has been a new textbook adoption. And this is unpaid time. Yes, it is our choice to do this - but it makes the school year a whole lot more meaningful.

Every time I even go on vacation I'm thinking how can I bring some of this experience back with me to share with my students? I am the bane of existence for park rangers - I keep pestering them for freebie educational materials. Do I and other teachers have to do this? Are we reimbursed for the things we purchase out of pocket to enrich our rooms - a very small percentage is able to taken off our taxes and I"m not sure we get that this year anymore.

Just think what would happen to the schools and classrooms if teachers worked only to the letter of their contract? And no one agreed to take on extra duty contracts?

No chaperoning for proms, field trips, dances, after school activities, tutoring, no clubs, no workshops enriching the teacher to enrich the classroom, no extra lunch duties for supervising in the cafeteria, and so on.

Who is going to get hurt by this? The students of course - which is why a movement like this wouldn't go very far - but teachers are tired of being taken advantage of with "it's for the good of the students" and consistently giving up our time and not being compensated.

Sasha, if there are SO many teachers who spend their summers trying to get better, working on upcoming curriculums and doing all the things that you suggest here, why are our schools failing so miserably and our students testing so poorly?

I'm not saying you don't do that because I know for a fact that there are teachers that do. Poca Elementary (when my kids were there) had a group of teachers that went way, way above and beyond what was required of them and the majority of parents with children who were students of these wonderful teachers know it.

I don't know you. I have no idea what you do. But I submit that teachers like what you describe and the ones I know from PES are the exception, not the rule.

You ask about extra duty contracts. I have no idea what that is.

As for the other activities you mentioned, let’s address these individually.

Dances and proms could just as easily be chaperoned by parents. As a single father that has watched these events skyrocket in everything, I personally wouldn't give a rat's butt if the completely went away.

I've been on many field trips, some good, others needless and wasteful. Honestly, I'd rather the kids be in school unless it's for something like a college visit or job fair in high school. Going to the local petting zoo or touring John Amos, while fun, isn’t essential to our children's education.

What after school activities would be lost? Ones where teachers are actually paid to participate? I know of none at Poca High School that would be lost because a teacher is volunteering his/her time. Sorry, you're going to have to be a little more specific.

What clubs would be lost? It's been my experience that if the kids want something like this, they can find someone to assist them. Sometimes it is a teacher, others it's a parent but I hardly think the vast majority of teachers are giving up hours each week and the ones that are giving up some of their time get something in return.

After school tutoring, to the best of my knowledge, is compensated for. If it's not, it should be.

Lunch duties and such, I honestly don't think are that big of a deal, especially if you're getting your lunch free, as is the practice in many schools. But the bottom line is, teachers really shouldn't be the ones supervising during this time. That should be done by the administration. Go eat your lunch and don't feel a bit guilty about it.

I'm sorry; I just don't buy the 'long hours' that you work as a bad thing or a detriment. As I've said in previous post, it's not as bad as it's made out to be. You work ~8 to 9 hours a day, 5 days a week, you have every major holiday off and in addition to not working during the summer you get a couple of vacations during the school year.

The one area where I will agree completely with you is in purchasing materials. Teachers shouldn't have to do that, at all. IMO, that is a failure of the administration.

I'm not trying to rag on teachers Sasha. I think teaching is about as honorable a profession as anyone can choose and I greatly appreciate every sacrifice that you make for children. I would love to pay teachers more, with an average pay 20 to 50% higher then what it currently is. Of course before I would ever support anything like that, changes would have to be made. Changes in tenure laws, accountability, certification, testing, administration and increased instructional days would all need strengthened, but once that happens, I would support paying teachers more. But teachers won't make accept these changes so we're stuck in the revolving door of our current system.