5 Myths About the Great Depression
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Aaron
ohio county
sodbuster
Stephanie
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5 Myths About the Great Depression
Another member of the Campaign for Liberty posted this in his blog yesterday. I thought some of you would like to read it too.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122576077569495545.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122576077569495545.html
Five Myths About the Great Depression
Herbert Hoover was no proponent of laissez-faire.
By ANDREW B. WILSON
The current financial crisis has revived powerful misconceptions about the Great Depression. Those who misinterpret the past are all too likely to repeat the exact same mistakes that made the Great Depression so deep and devastating.
Here are five interrelated and durable myths about the 1929-39 Depression:
- Herbert Hoover, elected president in 1928, was a doctrinaire, laissez-faire, look-the-other way Republican who clung to the idea that markets were basically self-correcting. The truth is more illuminating. Far from a free-market idealist, Hoover was an ardent believer in government intervention to support incomes and employment. This is critical to understanding the origins of the Great Depression. Franklin Roosevelt didn't reverse course upon moving into the White House in 1933; he went further down the path that Hoover had blazed over the previous four years. That was the path to disaster.
Hoover, a one-time business whiz and a would-be all-purpose social problem-solver in the Lee Iacocca mold, was a bowling ball looking for pins to scatter. He was a government activist fixated on the idea of running the country as an energetic CEO might run a giant corporation. It was Hoover, not Roosevelt, who initiated the practice of piling up big deficits to support huge public-works projects. After declining or holding steady through most of the 1920s, federal spending soared between 1929 and 1932 -- increasing by more than 50%, the biggest increase in federal spending ever recorded during peacetime.
Public projects undertaken by Hoover included the San Francisco Bay Bridge, the Los Angeles Aqueduct, and Hoover Dam. The Republican president won plaudits from the American Federation of Labor for his industrial policy, which included jawboning business leaders to refrain from cutting wages as the economy fell. Referring to counteracting the business cycle and propping up wages, Hoover said: "No president before has ever believed that there was a government responsibility in such cases . . . we had to pioneer a new field." Though he did not coin the phrase, Hoover championed many of the basic ideas -- such as central planning and control of the economy -- that came to be known as the New Deal.
- The stock market crash in October 1929 precipitated the Great Depression. What the crash mainly precipitated was a raft of wrongheaded policies that did major damage to the economy -- beginning with the disastrous retreat into protectionism marked by the passage of the Smoot-Hawley tariff, which passed the House in May 1929 and the Senate in March 1930, and was signed into law by Hoover in June 1930. As prices fell, Smoot-Hawley doubled the effective tariff duties on a wide range of manufactures and agricultural products. It triggered the beggar-thy-neighbor policies of countervailing tariffs that caused the international economy to collapse. Some have argued that the increasing likelihood that the Smoot-Hawley tariff would pass was a major contributing factor to the stock-market collapse in the fall of 1929.
- Where the market had failed, the government stepped in to protect ordinary people. Hoover's disastrous agricultural policies involved the know-it-all Hoover acting as his own agriculture secretary and in fact writing the original Agricultural Marketing Act that evolved into Smoot-Hawley. While exports accounted for 7% of U.S. GDP in 1929, trade accounted for about one-third of U.S. farm income. The loss of export markets caused by Smoot-Hawley devastated the agricultural sector. Following in Hoover's footsteps, FDR concentrated on trying to raise farm income by such tactics as setting quotas on production and paying farmers to remove acreage from production -- even though this meant higher prices for hard-pressed consumers and had the effect of both lowering productivity and driving farmers off their land.
- Greed caused the stock market to overshoot and then crash. The real culprit here -- as in the housing bubble in our own time -- is the one identified by the economic historian Charles Kindleberger in the classic book "Manias, Panics, and Crashes": a speculative fever induced by excessively easy credit and broken by the inevitable return to more realistic valuations.
In the late 1920s, cheap and easy money fueled a tremendous increase in margin trading and a proliferation of "investment trusts" that offered little in the way of dividends or demonstrable earnings per share, but still promised phenomenal capital gains. "Speculation," as Kindleberger neatly defined it, "involves buying for resale rather than use in the case of commodities, and for resale rather than income in the case of financial assets."
The last thing Hoover wanted to do upon coming to office was to rein in the stock market boom by allowing interest rates to rise to a more normal level. The key to prosperity, in his view, lay not in sound money and rising productivity, but in letting the good times roll -- through government action aimed at maintaining high wages and high stock market valuations.
Some Lessons of the Financial Crisis – Stephen SchwarzmanMilwaukee Puts a Vote-Fraud Cop Out of Business – John Fund- Enlightened government pulled the nation out of the worst downturn in its history and came to the rescue of capitalism through rigorous regulation and government oversight. To the contrary, the Hoover and Roosevelt administrations -- in disregarding market signals at every turn -- were jointly responsible for turning a panic into the worst depression of modern times. As late as 1938, after almost a decade of governmental "pump priming," almost one out of five workers remained unemployed. What the government gave with one hand, through increased spending, it took away with the other, through increased taxation. But that was not an even trade-off. As the root cause of a great deal of mismanagement and inefficiency, government was responsible for a lost decade of economic growth.
Hoover was destined to fill the role of the left's designated scapegoat. Despite that, the one place where he and FDR truly "triumphed" was in enlisting the support of leading writers and intellectuals for government planning and intervention. This had a lasting effect on the way that generations of people think about the Great Depression. The antienterprise spirit among thought leaders of this time (and later) extended to top business publications. "Do you still believe in Lazy-Fairies?" Business Week asked derisively in 1931. "To plan or not to plan is no longer the question. The real question is who is to do it?"
In his economic policies and his incessant governmental activism, Hoover differed far more sharply with his Republican predecessor than he did with his Democratic successor. Calvin Coolidge, president from 1923 to 1929, made no secret of his disdain for Hoover, who served as his secretary of commerce and won praise from such highly regarded liberals as John Maynard Keynes and Jean Monnet. "That man has offered me unsolicited advice for six years, all of it bad," Coolidge said. He mockingly referred to Hoover as "Wonder Boy."
With the vitality of U.S. and world economies at stake, it is essential that the decisions of the coming months are shaped by the right lessons -- not the myths -- of the Great Depression.
Mr. Wilson, a former Business Week bureau chief, is a writer based in St. Louis.
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/06/news/economy/smart_grid/index.htm?postversion=2009010818
Better to light one candle than curse the darkness.
What do we gain by bashing and criticing Herbert Hoover?
Better to spend our energy and efforts dealing with the current crisis and attempting to avoid a repeat of the Great Depression.
Since over 60% of our economic output directly depends on an adequate power supply and distribution system.
I suspect even those on the far right of the political scale will agree on the need to upgrade, expand, and modernize both our grid and energy supply systems.
"The Brattle Group, a think tank, estimates the nation will need to spend up to $1.5 trillion on its electricity system over the next 20 years - and that's just enough to keep the lights on.
An investment in cleaner energy could put the figure at $2 trillion, and would include building new power plants, transmission lines, and focus on conservation."
Obviously we would all benefit by replacing the current old technology power plants here in the Ohio Valley with new technology cleaner burning coal burning plants.
Much research has been done and is being done toward that end.
So I would throw that out for discussion as a part of the long term recovery strategy.
Better to light one candle than curse the darkness.
What do we gain by bashing and criticing Herbert Hoover?
Better to spend our energy and efforts dealing with the current crisis and attempting to avoid a repeat of the Great Depression.
Since over 60% of our economic output directly depends on an adequate power supply and distribution system.
I suspect even those on the far right of the political scale will agree on the need to upgrade, expand, and modernize both our grid and energy supply systems.
"The Brattle Group, a think tank, estimates the nation will need to spend up to $1.5 trillion on its electricity system over the next 20 years - and that's just enough to keep the lights on.
An investment in cleaner energy could put the figure at $2 trillion, and would include building new power plants, transmission lines, and focus on conservation."
Obviously we would all benefit by replacing the current old technology power plants here in the Ohio Valley with new technology cleaner burning coal burning plants.
Much research has been done and is being done toward that end.
So I would throw that out for discussion as a part of the long term recovery strategy.
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Sherm,
The precise point is to learn from the mistakes of Hoover & Roosevelt. You seem unable or unwilling to do that.
The precise point is to learn from the mistakes of Hoover & Roosevelt. You seem unable or unwilling to do that.
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Guess it matters who does the bashing...
Shades of Hoover hard times?
by shermangeneral on Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:56 am
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-indymac12-2008jul12,0,6071779.story
Well It will be interesting to see the Bush apologists try to put a good spin on this.
Second Biggest bank failure ever.
This pic reminds of the old Hoover days my mother used to talk about.
I have to say this is the kind of stuff that brings Democrats running back home to scratch the rooster come November.
Of course, that was that shermangeneral fella before you got on here...
Shades of Hoover hard times?
by shermangeneral on Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:56 am
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-indymac12-2008jul12,0,6071779.story
Well It will be interesting to see the Bush apologists try to put a good spin on this.
Second Biggest bank failure ever.
This pic reminds of the old Hoover days my mother used to talk about.
I have to say this is the kind of stuff that brings Democrats running back home to scratch the rooster come November.
Of course, that was that shermangeneral fella before you got on here...
ohio county- Moderator
- Number of posts : 3207
Location : Wheeling
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Well Steph I might be unable to learn.
But whenever I have taken standardized tests measuring how much I have learned (i.e. public school, college entrance exams, and others) I always score above average.
But admittedly I am not as smart as some.
In any event, I think intelligence is over-rated.
I still recollect something I learned from Calvin Coolidge long ago.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
I have always found that to be true.
So I don't resent having my intelligence questioned as much as some.
But whenever I have taken standardized tests measuring how much I have learned (i.e. public school, college entrance exams, and others) I always score above average.
But admittedly I am not as smart as some.
In any event, I think intelligence is over-rated.
I still recollect something I learned from Calvin Coolidge long ago.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
I have always found that to be true.
So I don't resent having my intelligence questioned as much as some.
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Well OC you have a good point there.
But in my defense I have not been so critical or partisan since it became apparent how bad this financial mess is.
I am willing to put partisanship on the back burner till we get back on track.
So what do you think of the suggestion about investing to upgrade our power generation and distribution system?
But in my defense I have not been so critical or partisan since it became apparent how bad this financial mess is.
I am willing to put partisanship on the back burner till we get back on track.
So what do you think of the suggestion about investing to upgrade our power generation and distribution system?
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Also about the name change.
I have seen some other posts about that so I will explain.
During one of the periods when tempers got out of control some of my posts were deleted and I was unable to get back on using shermangeneral. I still cannot.
I had assumed shermangeneral was banned, but zig said he checked and that was not the case.
So I guess it is just one of life's mysteries.
But I think all the regulars know sodbuster and sherm are the same.
I have seen some other posts about that so I will explain.
During one of the periods when tempers got out of control some of my posts were deleted and I was unable to get back on using shermangeneral. I still cannot.
I had assumed shermangeneral was banned, but zig said he checked and that was not the case.
So I guess it is just one of life's mysteries.
But I think all the regulars know sodbuster and sherm are the same.
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
The grid needs a bunch of investment, you betcha. Let the people who garner the returns get the grid up-to-date, I say.
Ponder this, if you will: if we could spend our way out of a recession, why are we in a recession anyway? I mean what with the spending spree we've been on the last eight years.
Ponder this, if you will: if we could spend our way out of a recession, why are we in a recession anyway? I mean what with the spending spree we've been on the last eight years.
ohio county- Moderator
- Number of posts : 3207
Location : Wheeling
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Well when I read what you guys say it makes sense.
Then I watch tv and listen to radio and they say the consensus is to spend,
It is just like the global warming issue for me.
I dont know much about either, I just go with the ones who have credentials.
Then I watch tv and listen to radio and they say the consensus is to spend,
It is just like the global warming issue for me.
I dont know much about either, I just go with the ones who have credentials.
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
sodbuster wrote:Obviously we would all benefit by replacing the current old technology power plants here in the Ohio Valley with new technology cleaner burning coal burning plants.
AEP has been trying to do just that for several years now, WITHOUT GOVERNMENT FUNDING, but the weinie environmentalist have stopped new power plants in Meigs, OH and Mason, WV.
Last edited by Aaron on Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
You should be a contrarian. You'd be rich now. Think about it: Wall Street invests and reacts in a herd mentality. As soon as everything starts going bad, they cut their losses and sell cheap. You wait until the market hits bottom and then go in and buy cheap, you'll clean up. Consensus is over-rated, my friend. That's why rule by committee doesn't work.
ohio county- Moderator
- Number of posts : 3207
Location : Wheeling
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Sherm,
I'm going to send you a private message with a temporary password for the Shermangeneral account. I have absolutely no idea why you can't log in using that ID. I checked when Ziggy inquired about it and could find nothint amiss. I'll give you a temporary password, try logging in with that and then you can reset the password to whatever you like.
I had no idea you were still unable to use that account. I thought you just preferred this for some reason.
btw.....I think you're stupid like a fox.
I'm going to send you a private message with a temporary password for the Shermangeneral account. I have absolutely no idea why you can't log in using that ID. I checked when Ziggy inquired about it and could find nothint amiss. I'll give you a temporary password, try logging in with that and then you can reset the password to whatever you like.
I had no idea you were still unable to use that account. I thought you just preferred this for some reason.
btw.....I think you're stupid like a fox.
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
What's this? Sodbuster and Shermangeneral are the same person?
ohio county- Moderator
- Number of posts : 3207
Location : Wheeling
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/opinion/09krugman.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
Well like Harry Truman said, we need to find a one-handed economist.
This guy says we should spend twice what has been proposed to turn things around.
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=611d21dd-edb6-45f8-802c-568e35493234
And this guy says even more than that.
And when they explain their proposals they all make sense to me.
But from what I have seen so far, Obama will run into more opposition because they want the stimulus to be more than he proposes.
Not less.
Well like Harry Truman said, we need to find a one-handed economist.
This guy says we should spend twice what has been proposed to turn things around.
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=611d21dd-edb6-45f8-802c-568e35493234
And this guy says even more than that.
And when they explain their proposals they all make sense to me.
But from what I have seen so far, Obama will run into more opposition because they want the stimulus to be more than he proposes.
Not less.
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Suprise, suprise, once again you reference Krugman.
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
ohio county wrote:What's this? Sodbuster and Shermangeneral are the same person?
Yeah, but shhhhhhhhh. Neither one knows about the other- just like Armon and Keli.
ziggy- Moderator
- Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Aaron wrote:sodbuster wrote:Obviously we would all benefit by replacing the current old technology power plants here in the Ohio Valley with new technology cleaner burning coal burning plants.
AEP has been trying to do just that for several years now, WITHOUT GOVERNMENT FUNDING, but the weinie environmentalist have stopped new power plants in Meigs, OH and Mason, WV.
Any particular time you going to address this SodGeneral?
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
It is my understanding that the one in Meigs County is still on track.
It was the VA Corporations Commission, not "weinie environmentalists" that stopped the Mason County one.
It was the VA Corporations Commission, not "weinie environmentalists" that stopped the Mason County one.
ziggy- Moderator
- Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Well thanks zig I agree with that.
But I am still an environmentalist.
I would like to have electric power with the least cost to the consumer and the environment.
Unlike some who dont care about the environment or the cost to the consumer.
But I am still an environmentalist.
I would like to have electric power with the least cost to the consumer and the environment.
Unlike some who dont care about the environment or the cost to the consumer.
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
When did the court in Columbus put the Meigs court back online? The Sierra Club sued to stop it and the last I saw, it was still pending.
The Sierra Club has also said that if AEP gets past the VPSC, they'll sue to stop the one in Mason too.
The Sierra Club has also said that if AEP gets past the VPSC, they'll sue to stop the one in Mason too.
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Aaron wrote:When did the court in Columbus put the Meigs court back online? The Sierra Club sued to stop it and the last I saw, it was still pending.
They may have sued, but there has been no resolution of such a lawsuit. The Ohio Dept. of Natural resources is holding perfunctory public hearings and isuing various both mining and Meigs County power plant siting related permits as we speak.
ziggy- Moderator
- Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
You'll have to show me in writing. No offense but your word and a dollar ain't enough to get a good cup of coffee...and pay the tax.
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: 5 Myths About the Great Depression
Aaron wrote:Suprise, suprise, once again you reference Krugman.
Well did you read the reference or just see who it was by and dismiss it?
Also there was another link in the same post I thought might make for some disccussion since it would not only help re-build our manufacturing base but also create demand for wv energy.
Since it would not only help re-build our manufacturing base but greatly expand the demand for energy produced in wv.
"Investing in high-speed rails would be very expensive, but unlike tax cuts--the benefits of which can be siphoned off in the purchase of imported goods--the money spent would go directly to reviving American industry and improving the country's trade balance. That doesn't just mean jobs creating dedicated tracks or new rail stations: Though the U.S. abandoned train manufacturing decades ago to the French, Germans, Canadians, and Japanese, this kind of production could be undertaken by our ailing auto companies or aircraft companies--if the federal and state governments were to place orders. And building trains that would run on electricity would be a paradigmatic example of the "green jobs" that Obama often touts.
Though a massive investment in high-speed rail brings its own set of complications, it's worth keeping these kind of examples in mind when one hears from the Obama people that they can't find sufficient infrastructure projects to fund. The question I would pose is this: Are we not at some point going to have to go beyond repairing roads and bridges in our conception of public spending and public works, and contemplate the kind of ambitious industrial expenditures that the country made on war production in 1941?"
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=611d21dd-edb6-45f8-802c-568e35493234
The author is J.B. Judis.
I have not heard of him.
The publication is New Republic.
I am not familiar with it but it sounds like a rightwing outfit just from the name.
shermangeneral- Number of posts : 1347
Location : Sherman, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-30
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