Re: Question for Stephanie and other anti-Zionists:

by ziggy Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:13 pm

Aaron wrote:
ziggy wrote:
Aaron wrote:Your quoting a medical journal that doesn't give a clear explaination as to why it's estimates are 10 times the governments.

That may work for you.

It doesn't for me.

And "the government" does not give a clear explanation of why its estimates are only one tenth of that of a medical journal.

That may work for you. But it doesn't for me.

The government bases thier data on ACTUAL deaths.

You have more faith in the government than I do.

by Keli Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:18 pm

Stephanie wrote:Sherm,

First of all, that is not the Jew's homeland. That land was confiscated from the people who'd been living on it for thousands of years and given to Zionist Jews. Pardon me, but 60 years is little more than a blind of an eye in the history of humanity.

Secondly, Israelis are not only survivors of concentration camps and discrimination........they are natural born American citizens and Ethopians and others who decide to abandon their homeland in favor of exiling Palestinians.

Finally, if you don't want the USA to invade and occupy and bomb Iraq and Iran, it is extremely hypocritical of you to fully support the US funding and arming of another nation to commit these acts of aggression. You're right, it shouldn't be our soldiers, nor should it be our tanks and our bombs and our money being used to shed all this blood.

When has there not been Jews living in Palestine-i.e. Israel?

by Aaron Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:19 pm

ziggy wrote:
Aaron wrote:
ziggy wrote:
Aaron wrote:Your quoting a medical journal that doesn't give a clear explaination as to why it's estimates are 10 times the governments.

That may work for you.

It doesn't for me.

And "the government" does not give a clear explanation of why its estimates are only one tenth of that of a medical journal.

That may work for you. But it doesn't for me.

The government bases thier data on ACTUAL deaths.

You have more faith in the government than I do.

I have more faith in the government the I do you.

by **Stephanie** Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:38 pm

There have always been Jews living in Palestine. They coexisted pretty darn peacefully with their Arab neighbors prior to Lord Balfour & Co.

So for those Jews that is their homeland. However, the Jews from Africa, Europe, North America etc.......that is not their homeland. That is the homeland of the Palestinian people.

by Cato Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:45 pm

shermangeneral wrote:"Quite skipping around the subject, sherman. You have been very critical of Bush for invading Iraq because of weapons of Mass Destruction, yet you are saying you would support and help Israel take out Iran's nuclear capibility. You state the danger is that Iran may give a nuke to a terroist group. That was the reason given by Bush to invade Iraq. Presently we don't know if Iran really has nuclear weapons or not, just as we were mistaken in Iraq. Yet, you support military action against one and not the other, yet all the circumstances are the same. All I am asking is for you to explain the differing stance. Why I ask is because the only difference I can see is the politics of the person occupying the whitehouse. Surely you do have an answer don't you??"<------- Cato

Well Cato it is not I who is doing a dance here.

I told you I did not object to Israel knocking out Iraq's nuclear facilities.

Just as I would not object to Israel knocking out Iran's nuclear facilities.

But I did not support the U.S. invading and occuping Iraq and I would not support the U.S. invading and occupying Iran.

What is so hard to understand about that?

The point is Sherman, just as Stephanie indicated in her post to you, it is pretty hypocrital of you to condemn Bush for invading Iraq and then support israel attacking Iraq or Iran without provocation. By the way have weapons of Mass destruction or just having the ability to produce weapons of mass destruction is not provocation.

by Cato Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:51 pm

Keli wrote:
The UN gave Pakistan the Kashmir section of India in 1947 in the same resolution that formed Israel as a homeland for the Jews. Do you think that the Pakistanis should be sent packing to some other homeland, as well? Where? Hooterville?

As I said keli, you really bore me. I don't give a tinkers hoot what either the Arabs and Jews do or what happens in Kashmir. All any if this illustrates is how pathetic the UN is and that when people mess with the soverginty of another nation they create major problems that don't just go away.

All I care about is that the US doesn't become involved in any way shape or form. I object to my tax dollars being used to support either side in that matter and I will do all that I can to influance my representatives in Congress to not involve the US in the mess in the middle east.

by Keli Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:06 pm

Stephanie wrote:There have always been Jews living in Palestine. They coexisted pretty darn peacefully with their Arab neighbors prior to Lord Balfour & Co.

So for those Jews that is their homeland. However, the Jews from Africa, Europe, North America etc.......that is not their homeland. That is the homeland of the Palestinian people.

Didn't the Palestinians come from other places, as well?

by **Stephanie** Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:57 pm

Where do you think they came from Keli? You're the creationist. Do you not think they too decended from Adam & Eve? Do you suppose they came from the bowels of hell? Or perhaps you think they arrived on a spaceship from alpha centuri.

Wherever they came from, they had been there for hundreds and hundreds of years. For centuries it was their homeland.

by shermangeneral Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:02 am

http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

Well this seems to be an unbiased and objective study/report.

It would appear that a big part of the Arab population living in what is now Israel in 1948 were relative newcomers who moved there after the increase of Jewish immigration in the early 20th century.

Speculation is the development was instigated by the Jewish businessmen and drew in the increased immigration.

True or not, I dont know. Could be a coincidence.

by Aaron Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:15 pm

If there were no Arabs living in Palestine pre-1948 and that is the Jewish Promised Land, why didn't thy just come back and occupy it?

by **Stephanie** Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:24 pm

I've glanced at that report he linked to, Aaron. According to that report there is no way of knowing precisely how many Arabs were there, the land wasn't vacant, and although there were Jews prior to mass Jewish migration to the region, they were a very small minority.

I spent an hour last night looking at the damn thing.

by Keli Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:48 pm

Stephanie wrote:I've glanced at that report he linked to, Aaron. According to that report there is no way of knowing precisely how many Arabs were there, the land wasn't vacant, and although there were Jews prior to mass Jewish migration to the region, they were a very small minority.

I spent an hour last night looking at the damn thing.

Jews were there as far back as Abraham, the father of the Jews--2000 B.C. Mohammedans did not exist before 600 A.D. The Jews of the Diaspora (The Jewish diaspora (Hebrew: Tefutzah, "scattered", or Galut גלות, "exile", Yiddish: tfutses), the presence of Jews outside of the Land of Israel, is a result of the expulsion or emigration of Jews from Israel and religious conversion to Judaism.[citation needed] The diaspora is commonly accepted to have begun with the 8th-6th century BCE conquests of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, destruction of the First Temple, and expulsion of the Jewish population, and is also associated with the destruction of the Second Temple and aftermath of the Bar Kokhba revolt, during the Roman occupation of Judea in the 1st and 2nd Century CE.

A number of Middle Eastern Jewish communities were established then as a result of tolerant policies and remained notable centers of Torah life and Judaism for centuries to come. The defeat of the Great Jewish Revolt in the year 70 CE and of Bar Kokhba's revolt in 135 CE against the Roman Empire notably contributed to the numbers and geography of the diaspora, as many Jews were scattered after losing control over Judea or were sold into slavery throughout the empire.[Wikipedia])

However, Jews have always been in the Land of the Jews (Israel). Those who returned there wanted to return to their homeland. The UN restored the Jews to their homeland in 1947. Now the same ones who want the UN to solve all the world's problems--so long as US funds are not used--want the UN to fix this problem by moving the Jews out and letting the Palestinians reclaim there land stolen from the Jews in the first place? What are the Paulistas smoking?

by **Stephanie** Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:55 pm

Ron Paul doesn't want the UN to move the Jews out, at least not to my knowledge. Among the people you call "Paulistas" there are probably a very small minority who want what you describe, perhaps less than 1%. I have never heard that view expressed anywhere, but it may exist.

The vast majority of us want an end to US military and monetary aid to Israel and every other nation. It's one of the fundamental principles that unites us. Another is our desire for the US to withdraw from the United Nations. I thought you understood that. I could provide you with links, or if you prefer mail you some reading material so perhaps you'll finally understand, Keli.

by Keli Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:07 pm

Stephanie wrote:Ron Paul doesn't want the UN to move the Jews out, at least not to my knowledge. Among the people you call "Paulistas" there are probably a very small minority who want what you describe, perhaps less than 1%. I have never heard that view expressed anywhere, but it may exist.

The vast majority of us want an end to US military and monetary aid to Israel and every other nation. It's one of the fundamental principles that unites us. Another is our desire for the US to withdraw from the United Nations. I thought you understood that. I could provide you with links, or if you prefer mail you some reading material so perhaps you'll finally understand, Keli.

Although I agree that the US should immediately pullout of the UN, naive isolationism would lead to world war. You and your fellow Paulistas can live in your dream world--the rest of us must face the ugly reality that "there shall be wars and rumors of wars." And, IMHO, the only good Islamo-fascist terrorist is a dead one.

by **Stephanie** Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:16 pm

And, IMHO, the only good Islamo-fascist is a dead one.

Be careful, there....you may just be accused of hate speech with that kind of rhetoric.

by Aaron Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:17 pm

Keli wrote:And, IMHO, the only good Islamo-fascist is a dead one.

I read and studied the bible somewhat years ago before the church ran me off so I know I have no where the knowledge you do on biblical matters.

Perhaps you can refresh my memory and give the book where you find Jesus teaching that line of thought.

by SamCogar Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:19 pm

The Kingdom of Israel was one of two successor states to the older Kingdom of Israel, which existed from around 1050 BCE to around 930 BCE. The other successor state bore the name Kingdom of Judah which existed from 931 BCE to 586 BCE. Both Eusebius and Josephus place the division in 997 BCE and lunar dates of Venus can be mistaken as 64 years earlier. (Crossing of sun over Mars as Tamuz would be 10 July 997 BCE.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Early-Historical-Israel-Dan-Beersheba-Judea.png

In this graphic (click the above) about early historical Israel, the pink area is a rough approximate map of the near-maximum boundaries of the lands that were inhabited by Israelites or under direct central royal administration during the United Monarchy period of ancient history (according to the Bible) -- excluding states (such as Damascus, Geshur, Ammon, Moab, Edom, and the Philistine city-states) which sometimes acknowledged some degree of Israelite suzerainty or overlordship, but were never integral or directly-administered parts of the unified Israelite kingdom of David or Solomon. This is basically what is referred to by the Biblical phrase "from Dan to Beersheba" (which occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible / Old Testament -- at Judges 20:1, 1 Samuel 3:20, 2 Samuel 3:10, 2 Samuel 17:11, 2 Samuel 24:2, 2 Samuel 24:15, 1 Kings 4:25, 1 Chronicles 21:2, and 2 Chronicles 30:5). So the passage 1 Kings 4:24-25 (1 Kings 5:4-5 in Jewish verse numbering) describes Solomon's larger empire with the phrase "from Tiphsah to Gaza", these being the northeasternmost and southwesternmost noteworthy cities that recognized some allegiance to Solomon (Tiphsah was a trade outpost in northern Syria, at the bend in the Upper Euphrates) — but the actual land "where Judah and Israel dwelt in safety" was described as being "from Dan to Beersheba". This map was taken from a variety of sources, the single most important source probably being the Administrative Districts of Solomon's Kingdom Map, map no. 113 on page 86 of the MacMillan Bible Atlas (3rd edition, 1993) by Yohanan Aharoni, Michael Avi-Yonah, Anson F. Rainey, and Ze'ev Safrai ISBN 0025006053 (and to a lesser degree the Kingdom of David Map, map no. 104 on page 80).

by Aaron Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:20 pm

As I've said a few times Stephanie, 75% of Jews who immigrated to Israel from 1920 (the British mandate) on. Second in line was Asia, specifically the Middle East. 22% of Jewish emigrates came from what is now Muslim countries. Seems before everyone started telling them they couldn't live together, they we doing just that.

by Keli Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:46 pm

Aaron wrote:
Keli wrote:And, IMHO, the only good Islamo-fascist is a dead one.

I read and studied the bible somewhat years ago before the church ran me off so I know I have no where the knowledge you do on biblical matters.

Perhaps you can refresh my memory and give the book where you find Jesus teaching that line of thought.

They that live by the sword shall die by the sword? For our Solstice celebrators (pagans, agnostics and atheists), perhaps it is karma. (Pardon me for letting my dogma chase your karma, Solsticysts.)

by Keli Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:47 pm

Aaron wrote:As I've said a few times Stephanie, 75% of Jews who immigrated to Israel from 1920 (the British mandate) on. Second in line was Asia, specifically the Middle East. 22% of Jewish emigrates came from what is now Muslim countries. Seems before everyone started telling them they couldn't live together, they we doing just that.

I wonder if Stephanie would mind if US funds were used to redeploy the Jews to their former homelands? Should we ship them via cattle car?

by Keli Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:50 pm

Stephanie wrote:
And, IMHO, the only good Islamo-fascist is a dead one.

Be careful, there....you may just be accused of hate speech with that kind of rhetoric.

Would this be hate speech?

Question for Stephanie and other anti-Zionists: - Page 3 6a00e008c6b4e58834010536beeacf970b-

by **Stephanie** Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:13 pm

Keli wrote:
Aaron wrote:As I've said a few times Stephanie, 75% of Jews who immigrated to Israel from 1920 (the British mandate) on. Second in line was Asia, specifically the Middle East. 22% of Jewish emigrates came from what is now Muslim countries. Seems before everyone started telling them they couldn't live together, they we doing just that.

I wonder if Stephanie would mind if US funds were used to redeploy the Jews to their former homelands? Should we ship them via cattle car?

How much more than the $4 billion they receive annually do you think it would cost?

by **Stephanie** Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:15 pm

As far as the picture, Keli.....who is holding the sign? Looks to me like Zionists with the number of red hats we can see in the crowd. A bit of context might be nice.

by Keli Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:16 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Keli wrote:
Aaron wrote:As I've said a few times Stephanie, 75% of Jews who immigrated to Israel from 1920 (the British mandate) on. Second in line was Asia, specifically the Middle East. 22% of Jewish emigrates came from what is now Muslim countries. Seems before everyone started telling them they couldn't live together, they we doing just that.

I wonder if Stephanie would mind if US funds were used to redeploy the Jews to their former homelands? Should we ship them via cattle car?

How much more than the $4 billion they receive annually do you think it would cost?

It would cost us everything! (How much does it cost us to support the PA--and its cronies?)

by Keli Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:17 pm

Stephanie wrote:As far as the picture, Keli.....who is holding the sign? Looks to me like Zionists with the number of red hats we can see in the crowd. A bit of context might be nice.

Red hats+Zionists?? Tell that to Santa Claus. Really Stephanie, what are you smoking?

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