Re: I'm a legal American citizen and I must show my ID when:

by ziggy Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:58 pm

With your reasoning abilities, you should be a GOP strategist.

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:06 am

Aaron: Once again, you would be wrong and had you read what Stephanie posted, you would know it.

We will see. Right now I am holding a WV driver's license that I did not have to show a birth certificate to hold. Perhaps when I renew it, I will need one. I'll let you know in 2013.

Until then, IT IS NOT PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP.

So no, I am not wrong.

Sheik: TerryRC,

On what do you base this prediction?

History.

by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:15 am

It doesn’t matter what you think Terry, only what the law states and current law accepts that your DL links to a valid proof of citizenship. That is a fact your hubris cannot change.

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:23 am

It doesn’t matter what you think Terry, only what the law states and current law accepts that your DL links to a valid proof of citizenship. That is a fact your hubris cannot change.

Regardless of what you SAY, I am holding an WV DL that I didn't have to use a birth certificate to get.

Whatever the law may recognize it as, it is, in fact, not a proof of citizenship.

Now I don't care that you don't believe me. That doesn't change the FACT that, for now, in REALITY, my ID is not proof of my American citizenship.

If they had this law in WV, it would be a poor law as it would allow that loophole. As I said, perhaps when I renew it, the reissue will require a birth certificate and be proof of citizenship. The last time I renewed it, however (and it was post 2005), I didn't need it.

by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:28 am

It proves you have a right to be in this country and establishes legal residency, which is the subject of this conversation.

If any individual provides a valid, legal drivers license when requested by LEO's, whether it be in West Virginia, AZ or any other state in this nation, they will not have to worry about deportation as there legal residency will have been established.

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:37 am

It proves you have a right to be in this country and establishes legal residency

How?

When I got my NY license back in the early '80's (the many times renewed one I traded for my WV license), I had to have a SS card, a form of photo ID (I used my school ID) and two proof of signatures (HS ID and library card).

You could argue that the SS card is proof of ID but, as some employers can tell you, there are fake cards with a pool of SS numbers that run in the thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, that are used by illegals.

Otherwise, we could just put a photo on our SS card and just use that as proof of citizenship.

There are loopholes that need closing.

by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:46 am

I'm not going to argue with you Terry. The law is clear in that a legal driver’s license is sufficient proof of legal residency in the United States. You have been shown what the WV law states, it's written into the AZ law (which you claim to have read) and it is established United States law yet you refuse to accept the truth. As I said before, your hubris doesn't change the facts, it only makes you wrong.

Now if you have something that backs your argument other then your own flawed reasoning, I'll take a look at it but if all you've got is your continued hot air, I can get enough of that by walking outside.

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:46 am

With my experience, I would make a good strategist and to think, you were so much help along the way.

Speaking of being able to read black and white, I said you would be a good GOP strategist, not a good strategist in general.

You know the people that paired Palin with McCain.

Now back to the REAL POINT that I have posted in black and white and everyone of you supporters of this law have ignored:

The point we are missing here is that the list that Terry H. originally posted is a list of privileges, not a list of basic rights.

I expect to show ID to exercise a privilege. I don't expect to show an ID for merely existing.

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:48 am

I'm not going to argue with you Terry. The law is clear in that a legal driver’s license is sufficient proof of legal residency in the United States. You have been shown what the WV law states, it's written into the AZ law (which you claim to have read) and it is established United States law yet you refuse to accept the truth. As I said before, your hubris doesn't change the facts, it only makes you wrong.

How am I wrong? I did not have to show proof of citizenship to get my WV license.

Just because the law accepts my WV ID as proof of citizenship, that doesn't actually make it so. It is your hubris that makes you ignore that fact.

Again: The point we are missing here is that the list that Terry H. originally posted is a list of privileges, not a list of basic rights.

I expect to show ID to exercise a privilege. I don't expect to show an ID for merely existing.

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:57 am

Let me guide you to the WVGOV website. I chose a program at random and landed on medicaid http://www.wvdhhr.org/bcf/family_assistance/medicaid.asp

And I cite:

Proof of Citizenship and Identity (No other proof required):

* U.S. Passport; Certificate of Naturalization (N-550 or N-570); or
* A Certificate of Citizenship (N-560 or N-561);
* Documentation from a federally-recognized Indian Tribe.

Proof of Citizenship (Separate Proof of Identity Required):

* A U.S. public birth record;
* A final adoption decree; evidence of civil service employment;
* An official military record of service;
* or U.S. census records.

Proof of Identity:

* Driver’s license with a photograph or other identifying information...

These are the rules for WV. They clearly show that a drivers license is NOT proof of citizenship.

by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:03 pm

TerryRC wrote:
How am I wrong? I did not have to show proof of citizenship to get my WV license.

Just because the law accepts my WV ID as proof of ~~citizenship~~, that doesn't actually make it so. It is your hubris that makes you ignore that fact.

It proves residency Terry. I was mistaken when I stated citizenship. I corrected that 2 or 3 post ago.

And despite what you found at WVGOV, both Stephanie and I provided the link to the WVDMV website which stipulates that your DL establishes proof of residency.

The AZ law behind this debate establishes that a valid driver’s license is proof of residency. Current United States law establishes that a valid driver’s license is proof of residency.

You can argue all you like, you are still wrong.

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:15 pm

It proves residency Terry. I was mistaken when I stated citizenship. I corrected that 2 or 3 post ago.

Where? You will have to show me. I don't always catch your "edits".

You have said all along that a WV license is proof of citizenship after I argued that, if they had this law in WV, I couldn't prove my citizenship as I don't travel with my birth certificate.

I showed that branches of the state do not consider a driver's license to be proof of citizenship, regardless of what you think the DMV states.

The bit you posted : The DMV requires several different documents for the issuance of a license and an identification card. Below is a list of acceptable documents that can be used to obtain a license or identification card. Please refer to the type license or identification card transaction to see what you are required to provide.

That is the new law, post 2005ish.

That was not the case previously, as those of us that transferred our licenses before can attest. Also, the bit you posted says nothing about renewals. I didn't see where you need anything but your old license and proof of address.

Your DMV bit is not evidence that the state accepts a driver's license as proof of US citizenship.

In short, I have provided evidence that our state doesn't consider a driver's license to be proof of citizenship, you have not.

by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:18 pm

Residency-you don't have to be a citizen to be in this county legally, to accept government services or to obtain a driver's license. You just have to be here legally and a driver's license acknowledges that. That is established United States law and the Equal Protection Clause makes it law that all states accept your West Virginia driver’s license as proof of residency.

Anything else?

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:24 pm

No, you have moved the goalposts.

I originally stated that if they had this law in WV, I couldn't prove my citizenship as I don't travel with my birth certificate.

You came back with the "your WV DL is proof of citizenship". I said it was not.

Apparently you now agree with me. No need for further discussion.

by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:31 pm

Yes, we agree you are still wrong. If they had this law in WV, you wouldn't have to prove citizenship, merely residency. And here I thought I was the one that went down the wrong road. Thank you for admitting that it was you who screwed the pooch with your verbage.

To sumerize, the AZ law is merely that state making a federal offense a state offense so that law does apply in WV. It's just on a national level and not a state offense.

So if you are pulled over and you are required to prove your residency, you can with a valid WV drivers license.

Anything else or are you tired of being schooled?

I'm a legal American citizen and I must show my ID when: - Page 3 81632

I'm a legal American citizen and I must show my ID when: - Page 3 81632

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:33 pm

Yes, we agree you are still wrong. If they had this law in WV, you wouldn't have to prove citizenship, merely residency. And here I thought I was the one that went down the wrong road. Thank you for admitting that it was you who screwed the pooch with your verbage.

No, after they changed the AZ law, you changed your tune.

Now, the topic that you have ALL avoided and I will keep bringing up: The point we are missing here is that the list that Terry H. originally posted is a list of privileges, not a list of basic rights.

I expect to show ID to exercise a privilege. I don't expect to show an ID for merely existing.

As I said, he compares apples and oranges and I still think the AZ law has vast room for abuses.

by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:37 pm

My tune has been the same from the beginning Terry. Your driver's license is sufficent defense against the AZ law as it proves residency and that is all that is requried.

Individuals are not required to prove citizenship so why did you cloud the issue by stating they were?

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:51 pm

Individuals are not required to prove citizenship so why did you cloud the issue by stating they were?

In this state, you do not have to involuntarily give up ID to anyone unless they have probable cause and are making an arrest or as part of an official investigation. That used to be the case in AZ. Now they have a stop and identify statute (linky).

The constitutionality of the "stop and ID statutes" is still a matter of debate.

Individuals are not required to prove citizenship so why did you cloud the issue by stating they were?

Because that was how the law was originally written. I was slow to hear about the changes, I admit. this point still stands:

Nobody walking down the street, unless there is suspicion they have committed a crime should have to prove ANYTHING.

by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:08 pm

TerryRC wrote:Individuals are not required to prove citizenship so why did you cloud the issue by stating they were?

In this state, you do not have to involuntarily give up ID to anyone unless they have probable cause and are making an arrest or as part of an official investigation. That used to be the case in AZ. Now they have a stop and identify statute (linky).

Arizona is one of 23 states with "stop and identify" statues. Why are you trying to cloud the issue with this one?

TerryRC wrote:The constitutionality of the "stop and ID statutes" is still a matter of debate.

If it's debatable, why hasn't one of the other 22 states statues been challenged?

TerryRC wrote:Individuals are not required to prove citizenship so why did you cloud the issue by stating they were?

Because that was how the law was originally written. I was slow to hear about the changes, I admit. this point still stands:

Nobody walking down the street, unless there is suspicion they have committed a crime should have to prove ANYTHING.

Maybe so. But Arizona is not the only state that does that. Why are you not bawling (correct usage) about the other states that force their citizen to prove who they are for simply walking down the street?

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:11 pm

Maybe so. But Arizona is not the only state that does that. Why are you not bawling (correct usage) about the other states that force thier citizen to prove who they are?

We will see. It will take someone challenging the laws. I think AZ just made theirs this year.

If it's debatable, why hasn't one of the other 22 states statues been challenged?

What I just said.

Arizona is one of 23 states with stop and identify statues. Why are you trying to cloud the issue.

Because I said "if they had that law here", it would be a problem. I said that MANY times.

by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:26 pm

You're not making any sense Terry. You suddenly have a problem with a state over a law that 22 other states and you claim you would be complaining more if it were a law here.

Immigration is a topic in which many Libertarians agree with conservatives on but it seems you're siding more with liberals and suddenly, "stop and identify" laws are bad.

That's the vein of inconsistency you have that I'm referring to on the other thread.

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:33 pm

You're not making any sense Terry. You suddenly have a problem with a state over a law that 22 other states and you claim you would be complaining more if it were a law here.

Of the original AZ law I said that, if WV adopted the same thing, I would be against it, and why. I fail to see what is inconsistent about that.

Now, since you have repeatedly ignored it:

The point we are missing here is that the list that Terry H. originally posted is a list of privileges, not a list of basic rights.

I expect to show ID to exercise a privilege. I don't expect to show an ID for merely existing.

AZ's law on stop and identify, I feel, is unconstitutional. It smacks of "papers please, comrade".

That would make their immigration law just as unconstitutional. The AZ law doesn't appear, on the surface, to be unconstitutional because of the stop and identify laws that have yet to face federal challenges.

I think the AZ law is a bad law. I guess we will just have to wait and see about the constitutionality of it all.

by Aaron Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:13 pm

You don't have the right to "merely exist" in AZ or any other state. Immigration and citizenship are issues that are dealt with in the constitution and it's internationally recognized that each county has an inherent right to control their immigrants and to ensure that all citizes present are legal residents.

The United States of America has that right and with the adoption of the 14th Amendment and the Due Process Clause, so does the state of Arizona. While I'm not a fan of "papers please" I do think states that face the crisis such as AZ have a right to control who is taking advantage of their services and natural resources.

You continue to be wrong.

by **Stephanie** Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:48 pm

You could argue that the SS card is proof of ID but, as some employers can tell you, there are fake cards with a pool of SS numbers that run in the thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, that are used by illegals.

Renewing Your Driver's License

To renew a driver's license you must present 1 document from the list of identity documents, along with 1 proof of WV residency from the residency requirements. If your license is expired for more than 6 months you are required to retest, written and road skills examination, along with providing all documents as a first time applicant. If your social security number is not in the system, or is wrong in the system you will be required to provide your social security card, before a new license will be issued. An applicant who is not a citizen of the United States shall present all documents required by the Division to verify his or her legal status in the United states, proof of identity, and proof of residency in this state.

by TerryRC Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:52 pm

To renew a driver's license you must present 1 document from the list of identity documents, along with 1 proof of WV residency from the residency requirements.

So we agree that you don't have to show proof of citizenship to renew a DL in WV as one of the documents that you can use is "An original, valid, current West Virginia driver's license, permit, or ID card, that is expired less than six (6) months with photograph..."

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