Re: Obama Attends Church for 1st Time in5 Months.

by TerryRC Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:13 am

Why is it Terry that when the courts agree with you, it is a good decision and you tout it but once you were proven wrong, it was suddenly a 5-4 decision by an activist judge. And why didn't you comment about the currency? Seems to me you've gotten really good at talking out both sides of your ass. No wonder Sam owns you.

You are intentionally being a cock. I have NEVER screamed "activist judges". I was pointing out what Willy or the Sheik would be saying if this decision had gone the other way. They are the ones that appear to want to get rid of the judicial branch.

I think "In god we trust" on our currency is wrong - I'd think that the last think god would want is to be on money, symbolizing the love of material things. I think changing the Pledge to say "One nation, under God" was wrong.

Have either of those things ever made it to the Supreme Court? Why is your question even relevant? Just because I haven't made a big deal about here it doesn't mean that I am somehow inconsistent.

Since you accuse me of ducking questions, here are a few you never addressed:

Do you think the citizens would tolerate an islamic flag at this vets monument? I highly doubt it, even though there are muslims in the military.

and:

Do you think the satanists would get a fair shake for a permanent monument on public lands?

and:

Religious people already have a place to put symbols - churches and homes. Why do then need our parks also?

Now you can go back to cheerleading for Sam...

by **Stephanie** Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:17 am

Do you think the citizens would tolerate an islamic flag at this vets monument? I highly doubt it, even though there are muslims in the military.

I think most veterans would.

by TerryRC Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:18 am

I think most veterans would.

Perhaps. I'll bet the citizenry wouldn't.

by Aaron Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:31 am

What's the matter Terry, you can't take the truth. I'm being a dick because you’re being a bitch. I give it as it’s given.

As to the court ruling, you had no problem with what the court said it when you thought the ruling prevented displays on public lands. You didn't turn into a bitch until I proved you wrong and then suddenly the decision is wrong.

Now to your questions.

The Islamic Flag is on display on public lands. All you have to do is go to Arlington PAL and you’ll see them as they are there. And while I'm under no illusion that most Americans would not support them, that doesn't change the fact that legally, just like a cross or a menorah, they are allowed.

Show me where a Satanist has requested a public display on public lands and I'll agree with you. Until then stop bitching. The court said what it said, the 1st Amendment is clear to the unbiased and if a Satanist wants to challenge it, then challenge it by acting instead of bitching.

Cato's right on the last one. Does not our tax dollars support public parks and public lands? Why are atheist more entitled to the court house lawn during the month of December then Christians and since when do they have the right NOT to be offended?

by Cato Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:03 pm

TerryRC wrote:Under the defination of religion athesim and aganostism qualify.

So you have to use a disingenuous definition.

So EVERY strongly held belief is a religion? Strong belief in aliens is a religion? Thinking that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll is a religion?

Your definition is so vague as to be USELESS.

You need to take that up with Websters and/or the New World Dictionary folks, not me. I just applied the defination to agnostism and athesim. No matter how you slice it they come out to be religions.

That fact of the matter is your rights don't trump mine and mine don't trump yours, so, we must have a problem or there is a problem in the way the courts have applied the 1st amendment. You want the religion of secular humanism and I want christainity. Do you get your way at the expense of my rights, or visa versa?

The solution is simple, apply the first amendment as it is written, Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Don't add to or take from the words as they are written.

by ziggy Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:51 pm

Cato wrote:
TerryRC wrote:Under the defination of religion athesim and aganostism qualify.

So you have to use a disingenuous definition.

So EVERY strongly held belief is a religion? Strong belief in aliens is a religion? Thinking that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll is a religion?

Your definition is so vague as to be USELESS.

You need to take that up with Websters and/or the New World Dictionary folks, not me. I just applied the defination to agnostism and athesim. No matter how you slice it they come out to be religions.

OK. So let's start dicing. So which definition of agnostic and atheist makes either one a religion?

Definition of ATHEISM
1archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

Definition of AGNOSTIC
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic

by Cato Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:11 am

ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:
TerryRC wrote:Under the defination of religion athesim and aganostism qualify.

So you have to use a disingenuous definition.

So EVERY strongly held belief is a religion? Strong belief in aliens is a religion? Thinking that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll is a religion?

Your definition is so vague as to be USELESS.

You need to take that up with Websters and/or the New World Dictionary folks, not me. I just applied the defination to agnostism and athesim. No matter how you slice it they come out to be religions.

OK. So let's start dicing. So which definition of agnostic and atheist makes either one a religion?

Definition of ATHEISM
1archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

Definition of AGNOSTIC
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic

And they are equally religions. I see nothing that indicates other wise.

Religion - Noun

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially, when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

"Especially" being used does not limit religion to the worship of a supernatural being.

further we read - something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

Athesim and agnostism are as much religions as christainity, islam, paganism, or buddism. Nothing is going to change that either

by **SheikBen** Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:27 am

[quote="TerryRC"]someone who has decided that God does not exist has come to a ~~religious~~ ~~logical~~ wrong conclusion, no differently than someone who has determined that the Democrats are wrong on public policy has come to a political conclusion.

Fixed that for you:) Smile

No, Terry, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

If you believe that "God" or His existence or that of numerous gods or godesses is unimportant to your life, you are coming to a religious conclusion. You may have used logic to get to that religious conclusion (just as Aquinas used it to conclude that there is a God), but the conclusion is religious nonetheless. A truly irreligious government and population would not treat "religious" material differently than secular material, because it would be irreligious, rather than anti-religious. Again, as long as breast cancer awareness and support the troops messages cannot go on courthouse lawns, I don't think religious statements should, either. Equal access (or lack thereof) for everyone, not just for secularists.

Have you said anything about my Daley Plaza example of religions being allowed equal access on public land? That is the sort of thing that you seem to think can't happen.

Did you also notice that I, a born again Christian, have no trouble with the display? Of course, that just can't be because it does not fit your view of the world. I have also noted Books of Mormon in hotel rooms that did spur on an inquisition from the Sheik.

by ziggy Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:16 am

Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:
TerryRC wrote:Under the defination of religion athesim and aganostism qualify.

So you have to use a disingenuous definition.

So EVERY strongly held belief is a religion? Strong belief in aliens is a religion? Thinking that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll is a religion?

Your definition is so vague as to be USELESS.

You need to take that up with Websters and/or the New World Dictionary folks, not me. I just applied the defination to agnostism and athesim. No matter how you slice it they come out to be religions.

OK. So let's start dicing. So which definition of agnostic and atheist makes either one a religion?

Definition of ATHEISM
1archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

Definition of AGNOSTIC
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic

And they are equally religions. I see nothing that indicates other wise.

You have shown us nothing to indicate that either is "religious".

Religion - Noun

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially, when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

"Especially" being used does not limit religion to the worship of a supernatural being.
[/b]

So disbelief in religion is just as much of a "religion" as is belief?

further we read -[b] something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

What do atheists or agnostics believe or follow devotedly? Most atheists and agnostics I know just go about their business and let others do likewise.

Athesim and agnostism are as much religions as christainity, islam, paganism, or buddism.

You just saying so does not make it so. You have diced it, but you have not shown that Webster- your chosen authority for the meaning of the words- agrees with you.

by ziggy Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:22 am

SheikBen wrote:If you believe that "God" or His existence or that of numerous gods or godesses is unimportant to your life, you are coming to a religious conclusion.

If we believe that a UFO or its existence or that of numerous UFOs is unimportant to our life, have we likewise come to a religious conclusion?

by Cato Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:53 am

ziggy wrote:

So disbelief in religion is just as much of a "religion" as is belief?

Yes it is!!

by SamCogar Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:25 pm

ziggy wrote:
What do atheists or agnostics believe or follow devotedly? Most atheists and agnostics I know just go about their business and let others do likewise.

Definitions of go about on the Web:

• set about: begin to deal with; "approach a task"; "go about a difficult problem"; "approach a new project"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

• To busy oneself with; To tackle (a problem or task); To circulate (in); To change from one tack to another
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/go_about

by ziggy Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:40 pm

Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:

So disbelief in religion is just as much of a "religion" as is belief?

Yes it is!!

And so is not having a hobby just as much of a hobby as having one? Is disinterest in politics and not voting just as political as favoring and disfavoring political candidates and voting?

by ziggy Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:41 pm

Religion - Noun

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially, when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

So is the study of the natural scienes- physics, astronomy, chemistry, geology, biology, etc.- a religion?

" ..... and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Civil government legislation usually includes a kind of moral code involving the conduct of human affairs. Is this and the judicial system that administers laws relating to human conduct likewise a religion?

"Especially" being used does not limit religion to the worship of a supernatural being.

It does not say only "Especially". It says, "..... especially, when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, .......".

What would be a "superhuman" agency or agencies other than a supernatural being?

by **SheikBen** Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:49 pm

ziggy wrote:
SheikBen wrote:If you believe that "God" or His existence or that of numerous gods or godesses is unimportant to your life, you are coming to a religious conclusion.

If we believe that a UFO or its existence or that of numerous UFOs is unimportant to our life, have we likewise come to a religious conclusion?

Fascinating question, Zig. I do not think so, but indeed in UFOs one considers something that some folks believe in and others do not; however, no one supposes that UFOs have died for anyone's sins. I don't suppose in the far reaches of the galaxy we really know what's out there. Point is, someone taking any position on UFO's, from belief to disbelief to apatheism, is taking a position on UFOs. If I claim that somehow I am disinterested in UFO's but I'm taking no position on their existence, I have just taken a position altogether related to UFO's, now, haven't I?

by ziggy Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:17 pm

Point is, someone taking any position on UFO's, from belief to disbelief to apatheism, is taking a position on UFOs. If I claim that somehow I am disinterested in UFO's but I'm taking no position on their existence, I have just taken a position altogether related to UFO's, now, haven't I?

I don't believe so. But I'll think about it some more.

by Cato Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:39 am

ziggy wrote:
Religion - Noun

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially, when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

So is the study of the natural scienes- physics, astronomy, chemistry, geology, biology, etc.- a religion?

They can be

Ziggy wrote:" ..... and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Civil government legislation usually includes a kind of moral code involving the conduct of human affairs. Is this and the judicial system that administers laws relating to human conduct likewise a religion?

It also can be. In fact, all one has to do is look at Washington or Charleston to see that many have made government a religion

Ziggy wrote:"Especially" being used does not limit religion to the worship of a supernatural being.

It does not say only "Especially". It says, "..... especially, when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, .......".

What would be a "superhuman" agency or agencies other than a supernatural being?

The use of "especially" doesn't limit religion to the worship of a supernatural being. Secular Humanism, to which you subscribe, is a religion whose god is mankind. Man is the ultimate authority, in secular humanism.

by ziggy Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:21 pm

Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:
Religion - Noun

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially, when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

So is the study of the natural scienes- physics, astronomy, chemistry, geology, biology, etc.- a religion?

They can be

Ziggy wrote:" ..... and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Civil government legislation usually includes a kind of moral code involving the conduct of human affairs. Is this and the judicial system that administers laws relating to human conduct likewise a religion?

It also can be. In fact, all one has to do is look at Washington or Charleston to see that many have made government a religion.

So then if government is a religion, and Congress- as the Constitution directs- makes laws affecting the operation of government- then Congress is making laws respecting the establishment of religion, and thereby the Constitution itself establishes religion, the religion of government.

And the circle goes 'round and 'round.

Oh what tangled webs we weave
When first we practice to deceive

by Cato Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:32 am

ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:
Religion - Noun

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially, when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

So is the study of the natural scienes- physics, astronomy, chemistry, geology, biology, etc.- a religion?

They can be

Ziggy wrote:" ..... and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Civil government legislation usually includes a kind of moral code involving the conduct of human affairs. Is this and the judicial system that administers laws relating to human conduct likewise a religion?

It also can be. In fact, all one has to do is look at Washington or Charleston to see that many have made government a religion.

So then if government is a religion, and Congress- as the Constitution directs- makes laws affecting the operation of government- then Congress is making laws respecting the establishment of religion, and thereby the Constitution itself establishes religion, the religion of government.

And the circle goes 'round and 'round.

Oh what tangled webs we weave
When first we practice to deceive

Government can be a religion, in fact it is to many. Everyday we see tens of thousands worship at the Alter of Government. They sacrifice their liberty, their property, even their lives to the elitists who consider themselves, like Herod, a God. They do so for some morsel to be maybe tossed on their direction.

You and Terry are fine examples. You worship at the Alter of the Imperial Government Gods. This thread stands as proof. Both of you hate Christainity and seek to have the gods of government grant you that Christainity be destoryed. You sacrifice the very liberty you have to limit or remove same liberty to allows people to practice their religion. You are even silly enough to do this in the name of liberty. The reality is that you and Terry and others like you you have a hatred of Christinity will do whatever you have to, to shove your views on those who don't share your views. You may call yourself and athesit or agnostic, but the fact of the matter is you worship at the alter of the gods of government.

by ziggy Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:13 pm

So then government is a religion- fully sanctioned by the Congress. If the Congress can establish the religion you call government, then why can't it likewise establish the religions you call atheism and agnosticism?

by Cato Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:03 pm

ziggy wrote:So then government is a religion- fully sanctioned by the Congress. If the Congress can establish the religion you call government, then why can't it likewise establish the religions you call atheism and agnosticism?

Youare correct in that governsments can establish and tax for religions. Our government rejects anything christain and replaces it with the religions of agnostism, atheism, and secular humanism. It promotes these religions with my tax dollars.

by ziggy Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:17 pm

But if government is a religion, then isn't Congress in violation of the Constitution just for making laws respecting the establishment of government?

by Cato Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:19 am

ziggy wrote:But if government is a religion, then isn't Congress in violation of the Constitution just for making laws respecting the establishment of government?

As I have pointed government can be a religion to people. We see that on a daily basis in Washington and Charleston.

That doesn't change the fact that congress is guilty of establishing secular humanism, i.e. atheism, a religion as the national religion. Congress then uses tax dollars to promote secular humanism in the classrooms and universities around the nation. The Federal Government through the court system is further guilty of not only promoting secular humanism, but silencing christainity, through many of the rulings they make.

by ziggy Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:16 am

You say that government "can be" a religion, but that secular humanism, atheism and agnosticism "are" religions. How is government any different from secular humanism, atheism and agnosticism as relates to being or not being a religion?

by Cato Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:44 am

ziggy wrote:You say that government "can be" a religion, but that secular humanism, atheism and agnosticism "are" religions. How is government any different from secular humanism, atheism and agnosticism as relates to being or not being a religion?

Anthing can be made a religion. The government has made secular humanism the state religion

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