on a former Massey Energy surface mine

Sam, you're not being fair. I think you know me well enough that I am being truthful when I say, I support responsible coal mining. I have no desire to end coal mining, and I have a strong desire to develop clean coal technology.

I vehemently oppose MTR.

Stephanie wrote:Sam, you're not being fair. I think you know me well enough that I am being truthful when I say, I support responsible coal mining. I have no desire to end coal mining, and I have a strong desire to develop clean coal technology.

I vehemently oppose MTR.

Stephanie, of course I am being fair. Your disapproval of MTR'ing is based soley on whether or not there is coal being harvested from said site.

Steph, take a drive up I-79 to Morgantown and observe all of the mountain tops that have been removed and all those currently in the process of being removed.

Stephanie, to vehemently oppose all MTR operations in WV is to vehemently oppose 90+% of all economic development in the majority of Counties in WV. And the reason for that is 90+% of all economic development requires "flat land" for building on and said natural "flat land" in said Counties is about as scarce as chicken teeth.

So, if there is no natural "flat land" available for economic development then said "flat land" must be created, and doing so, constitutes an additional horrific increase in building costs for a company or business.

Steph, now the fact is, the overwhelming majority of companies and businesses do not have the million$ required to create said "flat land" in WV so they are dependent upon "someone else" to create said "flat land" upon which they can then establish their business.

Thus, if "someone else" creates said "flat land" ....... then other companies and businesses WILL COME AND BUILD THEIR BUSINESSES UPON IT. (aka: a stock car racing track on a former Massey Energy surface mine site ........ or those dozens of new businesses that have been and are currently under construction at Flatwoods, Weston, Bridgeport, etc. along I-79.)

Steph, now it is time for my "loaded question" for you concerning all the MTR sites that one can see by driving the length of I-79 in WV.

Stephanie, given the above and the fact that there is hardly any difference between the MTR'ing along/near I-79 and the MTR'ing in the coal fields in WV, ....... tell me why you are vehemently opposed to all the economic development that has been generated and/or created upon said aforementioned mtr sites along/near I-79, ......... and why you are vehemently opposed to all the economic development that will be generated upon said aforementioned mtr sites along/near I-79 that are currently being created ...... and/or why you are vehemently opposed to any economic development on MTR sites in southern WV?

Steph, in WV, one can not generate very much economic development ....... without first executing some MTR'ing.

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When WV is nice and flat so we have all the dirt tracks and shopping malls required for life in the 21st century, what will we call her? She won't be the Mountain State any longer and she won't be "wild & wonderful" either.

I reject the premise that we must destroy the mountains and the environment, kill the wildlife and obliterate WV's natural beauty in order to retrieve the coal and have economic development. I'm interested in preserving these things for my children and grandchildren.

You didn't address Sam's post Stephanie. You spouted the same old tried and true that's on any of a dozen anti-MTR sites.

Like it or not, WV'ians need and want Wal Mart's, schools, hospitals and yes, even golf courses and if there isn't a MTR site around to build on, then business will remove the mountains without looking for coal first.

And as someone who's been around this state, trust me, we are in no danger of becoming Iowa in the next 500 years.

Stephanie wrote:When WV is nice and flat so we have all the dirt tracks and shopping malls required for life in the 21st century, what will we call her? She won't be the Mountain State any longer and she won't be "wild & wonderful" either.

I reject the premise that we must destroy the mountains and the environment, kill the wildlife and obliterate WV's natural beauty in order to retrieve the coal and have economic development. I'm interested in preserving these things for my children and grandchildren.

But Stephanie, it was my father and grandfathers that preserved those things for me .............. and by damn I want to use them before I die.

Steph, get serious, ya can't be preserving something for future use ....... if that something is required to help ya survive to that future date.



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I totally disagree.

There is no planning anywhere in this state that I can see. We don't "need" Walmarts. We don't "need" golf courses and race tracks either. You talk of all the economic development, yet you offer nothing long term by way of manufacturing and production other than coal.

Schools, hospitals, Walmarts........all service industry. Raping the land to harvest the coal and using the excuse we need to build a Walmart doesn't fly. You can play golf almost anywhere in the country. Racetracks exist in extremely flat places. You can't downhill ski in Indiana and you can't go white water rafting in Kansas.

WV has so much to her advantage, and you seek to destroy those very things for a quick financial shot in the arm. If we allow the destruction of WV's mountains and fill in the hollers and destroy the streams, we will lose far more than we could ever gain.

MTR is in no way threatening down hill sking or white water rafting.

Yours is a typical out of state perspective. I think you should travel the state some so you have a little more perspective in what you are talking about.

Aaron wrote:MTR is in no way threatening down hill sking or white water rafting.

Yours is a typical out of state perspective. I think you should travel the state some so you have a little more perspective in what you are talking about.

Well perhaps you should tell me where I need to travel that I haven't already.

I live in Putnam County. I regularly travel around Mason, Jackson, & Kanawha counties. I also regularly travel to Nicholas County, an area we spent 3 or 4 months in before settling here. My husband has family in Clay, Upshur, Webster and Greenbriar counties, where we also have visited numerous times. I've spent a good deal of time in Fayette County. I have visited Mingo County and traveled all the way to the Eastern Panhandle, where I will be traveling to again in a couple of weeks to tour Shepherd U with Katie. In November, I'm finally going to make my way up to Ohio County to tour Wheeling Jesuit. I've been to Braxton County at least twice, probably more.

When looking around for land to purchase we traveled all over the state visiting counties such as Roane, Ritchie, and Pocohantas to name a few. This state is very large compared to RI, and I have been here just a couple of years, but I'm willing to bet I've seen more of this state than a lot of native West Virginians. Hell, I have neighbors who almost never leave Putnam County.

Then why do you not know that MTR is not threatening white water rafting or down hill skiing?

Stephanie wrote:I totally disagree.

Why I knew you would.

Stephanie wrote:There is no planning anywhere in this state that I can see.

And I totally agree with you on that.

Stephanie wrote:We don't "need" Walmarts.

Sure we do. Walmart is the biggest employer in WV and without them the majority of all of those people would be without a job. And I say that because Walmart will make "flat ground" to build on ....... whereas the Dollar Stores, Dollar General Stores, K-Marts, Targets, etc., etc. all wait until someone makes the "flat ground" for them to build on.

And without all those Walmarts the standard of living for tens of thousands of WV'ians would decrease significantly. Walmart's low prices are a boon to their customers and said low prices forces other retailers to keep their prices low.

Stephanie wrote:We don't "need" golf courses and race tracks either.

HA, you wouldn't believe how many stockcar, racecar, and/or NASCAR fans there are in WV.

Stephanie wrote:You talk of all the economic development, yet you offer nothing long term by way of manufacturing and production other than coal.

Well, "DUH", just where in hell is there real estate suitable for building manufacturing facilities on?

"Build it (flat ground) ...... and they will come"

that is if you elect a majority of NON-SELF-SERVING Legislators to take control of State government.



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Sam,

A very strong argument can be made that Walmart is ruining America. They drive competitors out of business, demand lower prices from suppliers and manufacturers forcing them to lower production standards, and pay the overwhelming majority of their employees such paltry wages their children qualify for free medical coverage, free hot lunches, and clothing vouchers at back to school time I'm sure Walmart will redeem with as much glee as they do the foodstamps so many employees are eligible for.

When I drive around this area, from Leon to Charleston and points in between I see plenty of sites for sale or lease. Stores and factories sitting empty falling to disrepair. They are on flat land, easily accessible to everything from the highway to the river to utilities. It makes far more sense to redevelop these now defunct businesses than to flatten another mountain to make way for another business with a questionable lifespan, destroying the habitats of numerous species, devastating the natural beauty and harming the streams and surrounding areas.

Just take a flyover of southern wv and look for yourself and see how much destruction has occurred.

mtr employees very few "miners" compared to conventional methods.

Very, very few mtr sites are put to post mining use for walmart or anything else.

The size and scope of earthmoving for a walmart is but a pittance compared to thousands of acres in mtr.

Developing a walmart site does not typically involve burying streams.

etc. etc.

MTR is also safer to the worker and in most cases, provides jobs that otherwise would not be there for conventional mining operations as the cost per ton is too high to mine these small seams of coal.

As for the 'destruction' sherm is talking about, that starts with the permitting process so if streams are being covered up, you have to start with the government and their failures of enforcing current rules and regulations.

And if a company doesn't reclaim a site, once again, it is the fault of the enforcement process.

If you want to outlaw MTR, that's fine. Just keep in mind that the Arch Coal's (they are the biggest MTR company in the state, not Massey) won't convert to underground mining, they will simply take their equipment and move to other locations and mine there so you can kiss the thousands of direct jobs and tens of thousands indirect jobs created by the mine goodbye.

And once you've done that, you won't have to worry about the grocery stores, restruants and entertainment industry in that part of the state as the population will decline to nothing as the only viable employment options will be the county and/or the state.

Aaron,

Where is the responsibility of the mining companies?

If they bury streams but the government doesn't go after them for it, does the stream uncover itself? If they fail to reclaim a site, but the government does little to nothing, does that make the destruction left behind any less horrifying?

If these mining companies want to pack up and go to Kentucky or China, for all I care, rather than mine the incredible reserves of coal right here in WV in a responsible manner, let them go.

There was a time when all of southern New England was ruled by the whaling industry. Entire towns, cities, even states, were built upon killing whales to the point of extinction. Eventually the whales were all gone and the people had to find new ways to earn a living. Rather than wait until Arch Coal, Massey Energy, and all the others mine whatever they like, turning once wild & wonderful West Virginia into a wasteland and leaving the citizens behind to clean up the mess, it's time to look at other options.

Arch Coal isn't destroying the mountains in order to provide a couple of thousand jobs to West Virginians. They are removing the tops of these mountains because it's the quickest way for them to make a lot of money. They don't give two shits about the residents of WV. They don't care about what they leave behind, or what they destroy in the process and they sure as hell don't care what happens to the workers and their families once they're done.

If I recall correctly, Frank raved about Arch's CEO (Leer I think), about how he was the anti Blankenship and that he led Arch in a top notch way. So how could he not "give two shits about the residents of WV" or not "care about what they leave behind, or what they destroy in the process and they sure as hell don't care what happens to the workers and their families once they're done"?

I say that because I disagree with your entire assessment above. I think Arch and Leer do care but I also think they will push the limits as far as they can to answer to their number one responsibility, the shareholders.

Personally, I wouldn't lose sleep if MTR was banned outright but considering that I understand why Arch (as well as other's use it) I would like to see the practice regulated and monitored to the strictest level possible and that includes restoring many of the changes the Bush administration made in 2001/2002. Force the companies to spend their money protecting the streams, reducing the waste that is dumped into valley fills by restoring what is defined as waste to pre-2000 definitions and if they don't abide by the rules, then simply pull the permit.

And after they are done mining, force them to reclaim as close as possible to AOC they fail to adhere to those guidelines, fine them the amount to needed for someone else to reclaim to AOC.

Unlike most, while I don't particularly care for the practice, I do think there is a happy medium and that comapnies can mine and still take reasonable care of the environment.

Maybe that's just me though, huh?

If I recall correctly, Frank raved about Arch's CEO (Leer I think), about how he was the anti Blankenship and that he led Arch in a top notch way. So how could he not "give two shits about the residents of WV" or not "care about what they leave behind, or what they destroy in the process and they sure as hell don't care what happens to the workers and their families once they're done"?

In comparing Arch Coal and Massey Energy companies, Arch comes out ahead on reclamation, and it has lesser numbers of cititations for environmental violations. Still, they are both coal companies- among the most profitable companies in the world- that seek profits for their stockholders and high roller salaries for their executive officers- at the expense of the people who have to live in the wake of their pillage and plunder.

But comparing coal companies is sort of like comparing hookers. Street walking $20.00 whores get arrested more often and have less general respect than do high dollar "call girls" working out of expensive penthouses. But whether "calls girls" or "street walkers", they are still all whores.

And whether one is a coal whore for Massey or a coal whore for Arch, one is still a coal whore.

You sang a different tune a few months back Frank but as you've pointed out on another thread, the search on this forum is horrible and I'm not going to read hundreds of threads to find your high praise for Arch back then.

Regardless, if the goverenment would enforce rules and regulations, especially on AOC reclaimations, it would solve a tremendous amount of problems. But as the government is the Johns sucking at that coal whores tits, that's never going to happen, right Frank.

Tell me, why is it you all "want your cake and eat it too"?

Tell me because any sensible, logical thinking, planning ahead person knows that is an impossible feat for anyone to be doing.

You all want all the benefits that coal revenue generates, ....... but you don't want them generating any coal revenue.



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I want coal mined responsibly. I really don't think that is too much to require.

Even if it's mined in a responsible manner using MTR?

And before you even make the statement, yes, it can be done responsibly.

Regardless, if the goverenment would enforce rules and regulations, especially on AOC reclaimations, it would solve a tremendous amount of problems. But as the government is the Johns sucking at that coal whores tits, that's never going to happen, right Frank

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I agree that a BIG part of the problem is corruption of government. And so until the government can do its duty on strip mining, then strip mining should not take place.

I don't consider removing a mountain top to get at the coal "responsible". I call it destructive.

ziggy wrote:

Regardless, if the goverenment would enforce rules and regulations, especially on AOC reclaimations, it would solve a tremendous amount of problems. But as the government is the Johns sucking at that coal whores tits, that's never going to happen, right Frank

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I agree that a BIG part of the problem is corruption of government. And so until the government can do its duty on strip mining, then strip mining should not take place.

But the only ones that can stop MTR is the government. So the entity that can't regulate the industry is supposed to stop the industry.

That's quite a conundrum, don't you think!

Stephanie wrote:I don't consider removing a mountain top to get at the coal "responsible". I call it destructive.

Many agree with you. Others don't. We're all entitled to our opinion.

Under guidelines which require strict government enforcement, MTR can be done in a manner that creates an acceptable amount of damage to the environment in exchange for the economic benefits of the industry. The failures as I see it lie not in the industry itself, but in the regulation of the industry by the government.

That's my opinion.

But the only ones that can stop MTR is the government. So the entity that can't regulate the industry is supposed to stop the industry.

That's quite a conundrum, don't you think!

Yes, it certainly is!