Milking the System

Really, Aaron? I'm extremely surprised because that Algebra exit exam is so freaking easy.

When I enrolled Katie in BHS in October of 2006 I had a meeting with her guidance counselor, the school principal, the secondary gifted & talented coordinator and somebody else but I can't recall what she was. Psychologist maybe. We were negotiating a plan for Kate because Putnam County would not give her credit for any of the high school work she did the prior year as a homeschooled student.

Anyway, while discussing having her test out of classes I asked specifically about that exit exam. The gifted & talented woman, Heather Hawes I'm pretty sure her name is, told me that test would not be acceptable. Only one student in the entire county had failed it the previous year. The test is bogus to begin with, just another waste of valuable instructional time and taxpayer money.

SamCogar wrote:

TerryRC wrote: Figuring out how much time you need to travel to your destination and staying within the speed limit is an algebra problem.

YUP, and if you don't know how to work the problem the teacher should mark it wrong on your test.

But if doing said calculations is what you really need to get to work and back on the days that you work, ..... so be it.

But you might be the only person in WV that does that or needs to do it.

.

I was asked to help judge a science fair in a public school (date, time and place shall remain known only to me and God). One display was entitled "Fashion" and it involved cut outs from a glamor magazine. The glue was still wet. There was, of course, no paperwork. I wanted to give them (this was a collaboration!) a zero. The PS Operatchik that I was assigned to judge with said, "Oh no! We don't give anyone less than a "D" on these..."

Well, I suppose that if the fashion science fair project included some reference to global warming or gay rights, then okay!

Steph: The trouble is the graduation requirements for all students is too high. A kid who is going into autobody repair shouldn't be required to take and successfully complete 2 years of alg. and 3 years of science, nor should a girl going into cosmotology.

Why not? Perhaps they will get into a better line of work than autobody repair. My father hated the fact that he had to take so much math in the 50's. He ended up becoming a master toolmaker.

Aaron: If they fail it twice, it becomes an open book test. If they fail it 3 times, they get 'assistance'. Perhaps part of the reason we are falling behind on education is because we are mandating so much instead of teaching the kids that want to learn.

Fail them out, then. The public school was designed to give everyone a CHANCE at a diploma, not the diploma, itself.

If we spent more time on the basics and less time on PC feel-good crap, they would have the time to learn what was expected of just about every student a few decades ago.

I don't think lowering expectations is the answer to our education crisis.

Sam: Why that was a gawd awful thing to say to someone who has a Masters Degree in something or other.

Ah, Sammy. At least I majored in something more than snark. You know damn well my degree is in entomology. You also know that I gave you advice on orchard sprays some years ago. You didn't mock my education then.

In light of your above statement, I find it funny that you accused ME of contributing nothing to the conversations on these boards.

I also find your disdain for formal education to be quite common among people of your age and close-mindedness. I think part of our problem in this country is that too many take pride in being ignorant.

Nothing builds false confidence like ignorance.

Stephanie wrote:Really, Aaron? I'm extremely surprised because that Algebra exit exam is so freaking easy.

When I enrolled Katie in BHS in October of 2006 I had a meeting with her guidance counselor, the school principal, the secondary gifted & talented coordinator and somebody else but I can't recall what she was. Psychologist maybe. We were negotiating a plan for Kate because Putnam County would not give her credit for any of the high school work she did the prior year as a homeschooled student.

Anyway, while discussing having her test out of classes I asked specifically about that exit exam. The gifted & talented woman, Heather Hawes I'm pretty sure her name is, told me that test would not be acceptable. Only one student in the entire county had failed it the previous year. The test is bogus to begin with, just another waste of valuable instructional time and taxpayer money.

Heather said the exact same thing during a freshman orientation at Poca. She also got extremely pissed at me when she was discussing trade school and stated that many who went through electric, welding and construction programs were making "more then me in a few years" without going to college" and then she rolled her eyes. At that point, I told her I thought maybe that if she weren't happy with her pay, perhaps she should look for other employment. At that point, the principal stepped in to "keep us on track". She wouldn't speak to me afterwards.

Failing them out means the don't graduate, which means the graduation rate goes down, which means they lose money under no child left behind.

I see the problem now. You're under the mistaken notion that the number one priority of our schools is to educate our kids. While noble of you to think our kids come first in public schools, it is a bit naive.

Our schools are there to bring in as much federal dollars so they can provide as many jobs to as many union teachers and union support staff as they possibly can and education is used as the reason.

The only reason they continue to educate our kids is their production quota and they have to ‘test’ a certain percentage of the kids out as well as graduate them or they lose money, which in turn means lost jobs.

Failing them out means the don't graduate, which means the graduation rate goes down, which means they lose money under no child left behind.

Suits me.

Graduation rate means squat to me as compared to the quality of the education for those that graduate.

The only reason they continue to educate our kids is their production quota and they have to ‘test’ a certain percentage of the kids out as well as graduate them or they lose money, which in turn means lost jobs.

I still don't think the solution is to lower standards.

Terry,

The solution certainly isn't to continue raising standards. Look, if the schools were doing an adequate job with the criteria to begin with there wouldn't be so much difficulty.

You talk about quality of education but increasing graduation requirements does nothing to improve the quality if the instruction is poor. More and more colleges have been forced to offer more and more remediation for basic skills. Obviously increasing the graduation requirements is not working. This has been going on for a very long time.

The goal of public schools is to provide a basic education preparing students to enter college, trade school, the military or the work force. It isn't to prepare every student for a four year college. Sadly, our public schools aren't doing a very good job of preparing most students for much of anything and requiring all youngsters to successfully complete an algebra class is counter productive. There are a lot of really talented people out there who cannot achieve that.

Whether you realize it or not, what you want to make them disposable members of our society. You want the public schools to deny them the diploma that provides the gateway to so many other opportunities. Public high schools do not exist only to produce college students.

I can tell your kids aren't in high school Terry because you just don't have a clue as to what's going on in the real world.

By increasing requirements, it is the system that is lowering the standards. As both Stephanie and I have pointed out, they do this to ensure the school system is meeting federal standards. The federal government, NCLB and testing doesn't care what the kids learn. All they care about is that a certain percentage of kids take and pass a test.

If EVERY student is required to take a course and/or pass a test, then the harder the test, the lower the percentage of students who pass that test. The only way to ensure a large number of kids pass the test is to lower the difficulty. That is exactly what is going on. In Putnam County for A-2, they want 100% passing so they've made the test is so simple a kid would have to be really, really stupid to pass it.

If you truly want to raise the standards and provide a quality education for our children, then the best way to address that is to lower and/or eliminate requirements and teach children who want to learn what they want to learn.

TerryRC wrote:
Many kids can't see the future. Given the option to slack on challenging subjects, many will.

Why not just make them decide if they are going to college at age 12? If you are, you take these subjects. If you aren't, here is the door to the trade school.

The US is falling behind on education. Was a time when our smarts were respected.

Oh, well. My rant here is done.

You said something yesterday about kids choosing their career and implied that lower standards would force the kids to do just that. What you don’t get is that the county is already forcing them to do just that.

Right now in Putnam County, kids have to do a 3 year plan BEFORE their sophomore year and that is precisely what they are supposed to do; choose a career. The county expects a 15 year old to make that choice but that's not a 12 year old right?

Wrong. In middle school they have to do a 2 year plan which is supposed to lead into their 3 year plan so OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM is asking 13 to 15 year olds to decide what they want to be when they grow up.

And once they choose that career, they are almost forced to complete that plan. To get out of it is a nightmare. My oldest took construction and building and by his Sr. year, he had a shop teacher he hated.

If he couldn’t drop the class then he was going to drop out. We went to the vocational school and were told that if he dropped out, he would not meet his graduation requirements and thus would not graduate, even though he met every state requirement for graduation.

I informed the VP that wasn’t acceptable and if need be, I would see legal recourse as he had met the state standards. It was then that I was told that he could get what is termed a ‘modified’ diploma but he wouldn’t be allowed to March.

Being the asshole I am, once again, I said that wasn’t good enough. In the end, he dropped the course, took a couple of homer classes and those were somehow classified under his major. His diploma is in his memory box at home.

I have a feeling that when your kids get in high school, you're going to be in for a very rude awakening, especially if Kanawha County adopts some of the standards in Putnam County. And that's without even touching on the portfolio.

You have one or two in HS right now, don't you Aaron? What grades?

10th and 11th. Zach, in the 11th wants to drop out if the crap keeps up, get his GED and enroll in college early. I think I've got him convinced he can't take his GED until his graduating class finishes. I hope he doesn't find a way around this.

Alex has improved his grades simply because he wants to go to college and play baseball. Before he was a 2.0 student. Now he's a 3.25 and doing his best.

I want to tell you about a class they required seniors to take this year. It was a last minute sort of unofficial mandatory class called College Summit. Kate wasn't forced to take it because she took AP Biology and that course runs during that "Bison Block" which is when College Summit is held. They had a summer class they tried to force on her but we had travel plans so they didn't press the issue further.

Anyway, I think if your son is planning on college, it may be worthwhile unless he has something else he really wishes to take. They get information and on scholarships in that class and assistance with both college & scholarship applications. I don't know, though, Kate's done pretty good without it. She was accepted at every school she applied to and awarded large scholarships by the 3 private ones. We'll see if she wins anything else. The benefit I see to it is it provides time built in to write all those essays etc.

btw....your son won't qualify for the Promise Scholarship that way either.

Failing them out means the don't graduate, which means the graduation rate goes down, which means they lose money under no child left behind.

They lose State enrollment money also.

And if they label them as "learning disabled" they get 3 times as much State enrollment money. And Clothing Vouchers, etc., etc.

And with the un-educatable (Special Education) ones (like Sasha teaches) they get MILLION$ in Federal funds. And Head Start funding, Free Lunch program, etc., etc. And million$ in USDA food.

If you check the County BOE Fiscal Revenue/Expense Report you will not find any of those Special Federal Fundings items listed in said nor any Special State Fundings items.

Stephanie wrote:btw....your son won't qualify for the Promise Scholarship that way either.

I know but I've watched this kid, who is the smartest of my 4 pretty intelligent kids, go from a 4.0 student to a 2.5 and it has nothing to do with his intelligence. That school and their endless set of rules and regulations have gotten him to the point that he's as fed up with public officials as I am.

Even without the promise, if he scores high enough on his ACT, WVU will give him a full academic ride.

He's also aware that as dad is no longer a democrat, I'm not bailing him out from his bad choices. If he has to take a year or 2 at state, or even all 4, he's aware that he has to answer for the consequences of his actions and accept personal responsibility for the choices he makes.

The goal of public schools is to provide a basic education preparing students to enter college, trade school, the military or the work force. It isn't to prepare every student for a four year college. Sadly, our public schools aren't doing a very good job of preparing most students for much of anything and requiring all youngsters to successfully complete an algebra class is counter productive. There are a lot of really talented people out there who cannot achieve that.

We are lowering standards. When I was in school in NY, for the main diploma, there were requirements that are superior to anything that is required in this state today, including 3 years of a foreign language.

Take a 7th grade exam from 1920 and tell me that we haven't lowered our standards, I know better, Stephanie.

Many trades, like the toolmaker trade my father followed didn't require college but it damn sure required algebra, plane geometry and pre-calc.

I have a feeling that when your kids get in high school, you're going to be in for a very rude awakening, especially if Kanawha County adopts some of the standards in Putnam County. And that's without even touching on the portfolio.

We shall see. I'm not overly concerned. I don't depend on Kanawha County to supply all of their education, anyway, so we spend additional hours at home, learning.

We dissected lubber grasshoppers, this week.

By increasing requirements, it is the system that is lowering the standards. As both Stephanie and I have pointed out, they do this to ensure the school system is meeting federal standards. The federal government, NCLB and testing doesn't care what the kids learn. All they care about is that a certain percentage of kids take and pass a test.

I call shenanigans on your assertion that we are increasing requirements, at least as compared to the whole history of the public school system.

Forty years ago, latin and greek were required in many schools. Not any more.

I agree that, in the 70's, requirements dropped, largely to to programs designed to decrease disparity in education, particularly between whites and non-whites, but also between northern and southern states.

We have risen, since then, to requirements that are still far below what was expected of our parents.

We are increasing requirements but not in what is to be taught. We now tell kids they have to have 32 credit hours to graduate. We tell them X number has to be in this subject, X in that and X in a third. On top of that, we tell them they have to pick a major and conform to the standards of that major as well. And on top of that, we tell them they have to compile a portfolio over 4 years and they have to do all of this while maintaining a 2.0 GPA and that if they test in the lower half on standardized test, they have to take remedial classes regardless of where they stand in all other requirements.

And we're doing all of this in schools teachers chose this particular profession so they could get the summers off in schools with no discipline, respect, and honor and with parents who use the schools as a babysitter.

That's reality, not shenanigans.

Terry,

Right now I have my hands full and can't go looking up all of that histor for you. However, I assure you that 80 or 90 years ago public schools in this country were not requiring 3 years of foreign language for a high school diploma. I'd like to know where you've gotten these notions in your head.

You're not speaking to somebody who suddenly got a notion to talk about education policies and trends in America over the past 100 years, I'll tell you that.

I have no idea what the graduation requirements were in your high school in New York State 25 years ago. I can tell you that in RI the graduation requirements in nearly all school districts have increased dramatically over the course of the past 15-20 years.

There was a time when a person without a high school diploma could find work in this nation in a factory and support a family. Those days are gone.

There was a time when instead of completing high school and going on to trade school young people served apprenticeships and acquired the knowledge and skills necessary to be successful in a trade. Those days are gone too.

The world has changed and Greek isn't going to get too many American students anywhere these days. Knowing how to balance a checkbook and read the fine print on those credit card applications will.

Where does the "dumbing down" of education fit into this?

I hear this comment a lot from the rightwing talkers but not sure what it means.

Right now I have my hands full and can't go looking up all of that histor for you. However, I assure you that 80 or 90 years ago public schools in this country were not requiring 3 years of foreign language for a high school diploma. I'd like to know where you've gotten these notions in your head.

Well, I'm sorry you don't have the time. These are not notions, these are facts. I will not spoon-feed you references. I have found that effort usually is a waste of time.

I, for fun, took a 7th grade exam from MI in 1926, not too long ago. You would be amazed.

And, yes, Steph, in NY, even now, if you want a Regents Diploma, you must have 3 years of a foreign language.

And we're doing all of this in schools teachers chose this particular profession so they could get the summers off in schools with no discipline, respect, and honor and with parents who use the schools as a babysitter.

First off, I resent you lumping all parents together, unless you are saying that you did/do the same.

Second, most teachers I have met WORK a summer job, also.

Dumbing down is teaching to the slowest kid in the class. It's like calling Bingo and not pulling the next letter until the last person in the room get's her boxes filled in. It's prevalent in our school systems and they don't just do it to conservative kids, they do it to all kids as well.

TerryRC wrote:Right now I have my hands full and can't go looking up all of that histor for you. However, I assure you that 80 or 90 years ago public schools in this country were not requiring 3 years of foreign language for a high school diploma. I'd like to know where you've gotten these notions in your head.

Well, I'm sorry you don't have the time. These are not notions, these are facts. I will not spoon-feed you references. I have found that effort usually is a waste of time.

I, for fun, took a 7th grade exam from MI in 1926, not too long ago. You would be amazed.

And, yes, Steph, in NY, even now, if you want a Regents Diploma, you must have 3 years of a foreign language.

Terry,

I have several books on the history of public education in the US.

Besides, you're missing the point. 80 years ago people had a lot more options available to them without a diploma than they do today and much of it is because of the education system. This system is hungry and wants us to keep feeding the beast. Is a plumber who attended a vocational school actually any better at his job than a plumber who served an apprenticeship? People learn by doing, you know that. The business of education makes money off the requirements and they are the driving force behind many of these changes.

You look at state legislatures across this country and you will find that many, if not most of them, have a disproportionate combination of teachers and former teachers. They changed the rules. It's what they do.

Nor have you addressed the fact that no matter what is required for a diploma in NY state, forcing youngsters to sit through classes that they don't want to take and will not help them achieve their goals and survive in life after education is counter productive.

I'm sorry I really don't have much time right now because I am currently involved in preparing for the anti Real ID rally at the Capitol on Monday and organizing a fight against legislation that would eliminate portfolio reviews as an assessment option for homeschoolers. Plus I have a sick kid and my ordinary day to day activities with Loyd and housework etc.

btw.....I spoke to Charlotte yesterday and she wanted me to tell you something. She said that discussion about insects came up and Caleb knew something, although for the life of me I can't remember what right now, because you taught it to him at our field trip last year. She asked him how he knew that and he said because of the entomologist. When she told him she had forgotten your name he said, "Oh, I remember. His name is Terry."

She was quite impressed by all this and wanted me to thank you again for the terrific job you did with our children last spring.

OK, I just submitted this and then I remembered......It wasn't an insect, it was an arachnid. lol Caleb knew that a black widow spider bite wouldn't kill a person unless it was as the result of an allergic reaction. I think he said something along the lines of, "a single bite from a black widow might give you a stomach ache" or whatever. In any event, he was correct and said he got that information from you.

Why do children love creepy crawly things so much? Loyd still says he wants to be an entomologist. Crickey he knows a lot about spiders and grasshoppers and worms and the like. All I can say is "eeewwwwww!!!!"