A Taste of Terrorism – Crudely Bitter

Stephanie wrote:My in-laws are a coal mining family. Some did get out, like my FIL who retired from the railroad. Others mined coal until retirement. There are even a few in my husband's generation mining coal today. They are all, every single last one I have spoken to, opposed to both MTR and strip mining.

Are they all opposed to coal as you and Ziggy are?

SamCogar wrote:And you are not a coal miner, never have been, never had to depend on coal mining to support your livelyhood and have never lived in "coal country".

And you claim to be a frigging expert on "coal troubles" just because you read n' believe every negative "Letter to the Editor" in the newspapers.

As usual, Sam, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

I was born and grew up along a small brook called Cool Spring Branch, a tributary of Tuppers Creek, in northern Kanawha County. It was a quiet little community until about 1958. Then the Akers Coal Company moved into the head of the hollow, sent its bulldozers down the hollow to plow out farmers' fences, including my father's fences, in a vigilante "widen the road" project, turned the narrow but serviceable public road into but two deep muddy ruts in wintertime and a dust generating coal truck raceway in the summertime, and sent acid laden water down that peaceful little brook. The rocks turned red and the fish all died. The cattle wouldn't drink the stinky water. Finally even the mud turtles disappeared. Akers Coal Company strip mined the watershed at the head of that hollow, which turned a formerly year 'round, rocky bottom frog gigging, fishing and livestock watering stream into a raging, muddy river when it rained for only an hour or so and into but a dry bed of stinky silt when it didn't rain for even a few days.

And when my father tried to talk to the mine owner /operator about the miseries he had caused us and our neighbors, that man said, "Mr. (Ziggy), the last man that crossed me, you know, his barn burnt down in the middle of the night and he left me alone after that."

I had to watch my proud father cower in the face of this ruthless bastard "coal operator". And we endured the miseries of this enterprise, which never employed more than three people at any one time, for almost ten years until the coal played out and he moved on to torment some other hapless souls. In the meantime, that strip mine has never been reclaimed. Fifty years later that former clear-watered stony brook is still but a bed of stinky mud and the few rocks that show are still red from the acid laden waters that flow from the headwaters.

I was there and lived it, Sam. And I haven't forgotten it. All your sound and fury to the contrary is but more coal bullsh!t propaganda designed only to appeal to those who haven't lived the miseries of coal. You claim to be an educated, knowledgeable person on many issues. So you obviously know better. Shame on you for perpetuating the ignorance and squelching enlightenment.

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:Don't you read the letters to the editor columns, Aaron? Hell, even the paid Friends of Coal staff can't keep up with the opposition.
Do you know how many letters of public comment go in on permit applications? Do you know what percentage of those are "for" and "against". The opposition to MTR is a hell of a lot more than one in ten.

You're opposition isn't to MTR, it's too coal. Thank God people like you are in the very small minority. You're the type of person that would want to stop making lemonade because it's harmful to lemons.

Boy, you abandoned all those ten to one strip mine supporters real quick like didn't you, Aaron? That's OK. We all knew it was a bluff anyway.

SamCogar wrote:Stephanie, all done comparing?

If so, did Ziggy's "social miseries" of a few ....... outweigh the $3.5 billion annual "misery inhibitors" provided to the many?.

No one is trying the outweigh the "misery inhibitors". All we're doing is demanding that coal operators be required to do what the law says they are to do.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:Don't you read the letters to the editor columns, Aaron? Hell, even the paid Friends of Coal staff can't keep up with the opposition.
Do you know how many letters of public comment go in on permit applications? Do you know what percentage of those are "for" and "against". The opposition to MTR is a hell of a lot more than one in ten.

You're opposition isn't to MTR, it's too coal. Thank God people like you are in the very small minority. You're the type of person that would want to stop making lemonade because it's harmful to lemons.

Boy, you abandoned all those ten to one strip mine supporters real quick like didn't you, Aaron? That's OK. We all knew it was a bluff anyway.

Boy huh...is that how you are when someone calls you on your garbage!!!

And I'm not abandoning anything. Of all the people I've personally talked that live in Boone, Logan and Mingo Counties that know of Coal River Mountain Watch, 10 to 1 think you guys and your so called causes is a joke at best. Basically they think it's a bunch of garbage and they want nothing to do with the likes of you or your cause. That's a simple fact.

Is that a representative percentage of the entire population in sourthern WV? No, it's not and I never said it was. I'll concede that maybe 15 to 20% might agree to parts of your liberal cause.

What I will say is that less then 10% of the people in southern WV DO NOT WANT to shut down coal mining like you and your liberal idiot buddies do.

I read your sob story about Akers Coal Company and EVEN if it is true, that was 1958. This is 2008. If there ever was an Akers Coal Company, it's out of business now and shutting down every coal company, which is what YOU want to do, won't bring back your frog gigging pond so get over it and move on!!!

I got your boy...

ziggy wrote:

SamCogar wrote:Stephanie, all done comparing?

If so, did Ziggy's "social miseries" of a few ....... outweigh the $3.5 billion annual "misery inhibitors" provided to the many?.

No one is trying the outweigh the "misery inhibitors". All we're doing is demanding that coal operators be required to do what the law says they are to do.

Yeah, right. Your agenda is the complete shut down of ALL coal mining in West Virginia!!! Hell, at least be MAN enough to admit your agenda!!!

As I've said many times, thank GOD you and yours is a very small minority of the population!!!

(Aaron)- I read your sob story about Akers Coal Company and EVEN if it is true, that was 1958. This is 2008. If there ever was an Akers Coal Company, it's out of business now and shutting down every coal company, which is what YOU want to do, won't bring back your frog gigging pond so get over it and move on!!!

For a half century or more the strip mine advocates have always had this, "That was yesterday, this is today, let's move on" way of ignoring the on the ground facts. You have learned the spoon fed propaganda well.

I'm opposed to irresponsible coal mining. I strongly favor responsible mining. I don't know if Ziggy opposes all coal mining, I would never presume to speak for him. He does a pretty darn good job himself.

Now Sammy went and posted all kinds of wonderful facts and figures but he didn't include any of the negative impact of coal mining on the community or the environment, and there are plenty.

Why single out coal mining? The same can be said about many industries. I support logging, but that needs to be responsible too. Manufacturing is awesome, but only when manufacturers provide safe working conditions and decent wages and benefits without spewing toxins into the air, water, and land. The same is true about the timber, chemical, textile, fishing, and other industries.

That 65K coal mining job isn't such a great deal if while mining that coal they are raping the land or clogging streams or if the worker is going to die in a mine collapse in 5 years or suffer black lung disease in 20. Mining companies have to operate in a responsible manner for health and safety of their workers, the community, the environment, and future generations.

Aaron wrote:Yeah, right. Your agenda is the complete shut down of ALL coal mining in West Virginia!!! Hell, at least be MAN enough to admit your agenda!!!

As I've said many times, thank GOD you and yours is a very small minority of the population!!!

That is not my agenda. Nor do I know anyone who would waste their energhies on such an impossible agenda.

Why do you feel the need to focus on some phantom "agenda" instead of on the atmosphere of lawlessness related to the real problems associated with strip mining ?

Stephanie wrote:I'm opposed to irresponsible coal mining. I strongly favor responsible mining. I don't know if Ziggy opposes all coal mining, I would never presume to speak for him. He does a pretty darn good job himself.

Now Sammy went and posted all kinds of wonderful facts and figures but he didn't include any of the negative impact of coal mining on the community or the environment, and there are plenty.

Why single out coal mining? The same can be said about many industries. I support logging, but that needs to be responsible too. Manufacturing is awesome, but only when manufacturers provide safe working conditions and decent wages and benefits without spewing toxins into the air, water, and land. The same is true about the timber, chemical, textile, fishing, and other industries.

That 65K coal mining job isn't such a great deal if while mining that coal they are raping the land or clogging streams or if the worker is going to die in a mine collapse in 5 years or suffer black lung disease in 20. Mining companies have to operate in a responsible manner for health and safety of their workers, the community, the environment, and future generations.

I couldn't agree more.

Cepting for the part about Ziggy. Yes, he opposed all coal mining. Hell, even HillBilly knew that and he was as big a liberal whacko as Zig is.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:Yeah, right. Your agenda is the complete shut down of ALL coal mining in West Virginia!!! Hell, at least be MAN enough to admit your agenda!!!

As I've said many times, thank GOD you and yours is a very small minority of the population!!!

That is not my agenda. Nor do I know anyone who would waste their energhies on such an impossible agenda.

Why do you feel the need to focus on some phantom "agenda" instead of on the atmosphere of lawlessness related to the real problems associated with strip mining ?

Sure it is man. Like I said, at least be man enough to admit it.

And I can't focus on the 'lawlessness' of strip mining because I've not seen any 'lawlessness' posted anywhere to comment on.

I've seen where a liberal judge ordered the WV Army Corps of Engineers to review their permitting process and put a stay on mining as a result of that but I've not seen any 'lawlessness' from the mining industry.

If there is lawlessness, then the violatiors should be proscuted and sentenced to the fullest extent of the law up to and including government inspectors being held accountable for failure to do their job, don't you agree!!!!!!!!!!

Whether the lawlessness is by coal operators directly, or by their bought and paid for government regulators who take shortcuts around the laws in issuing permits to strip mine operators, it is no less an atmosphere of lawlessness.

ziggy wrote:Whether the lawlessness is by coal operators directly, or by their bought and paid for government regulators, it is no less an atmosphere of lawlessness.

When you can post specific incidents then we'll have something to talk about. Until then, it's all propagandic tripe.

Aaron wrote:If there is lawlessness, then the violatiors should be proscuted and sentenced to the fullest extent of the law up to and including government inspectors being held accountable for failure to do their job, don't you agree!!!!!!!!!!

Yes. But when the Courts direct the regulatory agencies to follows the laws instead of taking shortcuts around it, you guys cry to high heaven about it.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:If there is lawlessness, then the violatiors should be proscuted and sentenced to the fullest extent of the law up to and including government inspectors being held accountable for failure to do their job, don't you agree!!!!!!!!!!

Yes. But when the Courts direct the regulatory agencies to follows the laws instead of taking shortcuts around it, you guys cry to high heaven about it.

Do you think you could be a little more specific and maybe list a case or two where a specific court instructed a coal company to follow a specific law in which they were taking a shortcut and then I'll tell you if I cried about it!!!

How's that scooter!!!

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:If there is lawlessness, then the violatiors should be proscuted and sentenced to the fullest extent of the law up to and including government inspectors being held accountable for failure to do their job, don't you agree!!!!!!!!!!

Yes. But when the Courts direct the regulatory agencies to follows the laws instead of taking shortcuts around it, you guys cry to high heaven about it.

Do you think you could be a little more specific and maybe list a case or two where a specific court instructed a coal company to follow a specific law in which they were taking a shortcut and then I'll tell you if I cried about it!!!

How's that scooter!!!

How's that? That's a copout from the focus of the discussion.

You know very well that the current strip mining debate is, and has been for a decade, about various lawsuits designed to have the Courts direct the agencies to do what the law says relating to issuing strip mining related permits. You know it because, only a couple posts above, that's what you're bitching about- the Courts directing that the law be followed in issuing strip mining permits.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:If there is lawlessness, then the violatiors should be proscuted and sentenced to the fullest extent of the law up to and including government inspectors being held accountable for failure to do their job, don't you agree!!!!!!!!!!

Yes. But when the Courts direct the regulatory agencies to follows the laws instead of taking shortcuts around it, you guys cry to high heaven about it.

Do you think you could be a little more specific and maybe list a case or two where a specific court instructed a coal company to follow a specific law in which they were taking a shortcut and then I'll tell you if I cried about it!!!

How's that scooter!!!

How's that? That's a copout from the focus of the discussion.

You know very well that the current strip mining debate is about various lawsuits designed to have the Courts direct the agencies to do what the law says relating to issuing strip mining related permits. You know it because, only a couple posts above, that's what you're bitching about- the Courts directing that the law be followed in issuing strip mining permits.

No Scooter it's not a copout. You made an accusation about me that is completely false, unless you can prove otherwise, which is what I challeneged you to do so.

As for the case your speaking of, I assume it's the current suits directed at the Army Corps of Engineers questioning their permitting process. First, you won't find anywhere where I've 'cried' about any of it. I'm all for the law being followed to the fullest extent of the law. What I don't much care for is judges that legislate from the bench.

As for this case, a judge issued his decision and it was appealed. As far as I know, there case is still in court and there has been no final decision, unless you know something different.

Historically speaking, I do believe the 4th Circuit Court in Richmond has overturned the setting judges rulings on more then one occasion but I could be wrong.

ziggy wrote:

SamCogar wrote:And you are not a coal miner, never have been, never had to depend on coal mining to support your livelyhood and have never lived in "coal country".

And you claim to be a frigging expert on "coal troubles" just because you read n' believe every negative "Letter to the Editor" in the newspapers.

As usual, Sam, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

I was born and grew up along a small brook called Cool Spring Branch, a tributary of Tuppers Creek, in northern Kanawha County. It was a quiet little community until about 1958. Then the Akers Coal Company moved into the head of the hollow, sent its bulldozers down the hollow to plow out farmers' fences, including my father's fences, in a vigilante "widen the road" project, turned the narrow but serviceable public road into but two deep muddy ruts in wintertime and a dust generating coal truck raceway in the summertime, and sent acid laden water down that peaceful little brook. The rocks turned red and the fish all died. The cattle wouldn't drink the stinky water. Finally even the mud turtles disappeared. Akers Coal Company strip mined the watershed at the head of that hollow, which turned a formerly year 'round, rocky bottom frog gigging, fishing and livestock watering stream into a raging, muddy river when it rained for only an hour or so and into but a dry bed of stinky silt when it didn't rain for even a few days.

And when my father tried to talk to the mine owner /operator about the miseries he had caused us and our neighbors, that man said, "Mr. (Ziggy), the last man that crossed me, you know, his barn burnt down in the middle of the night and he left me alone after that."

I had to watch my proud father cower in the face of this ruthless bastard "coal operator". And we endured the miseries of this enterprise, which never employed more than three people at any one time, for almost ten years until the coal played out and he moved on to torment some other hapless souls. In the meantime, that strip mine has never been reclaimed. Fifty years later that former clear-watered stony brook is still but a bed of stinky mud and the few rocks that show are still red from the acid laden waters that flow from the headwaters.

I was there and lived it, Sam. And I haven't forgotten it. All your sound and fury to the contrary is but more coal bullsh!t propaganda designed only to appeal to those who haven't lived the miseries of coal. You claim to be an educated, knowledgeable person on many issues. So you obviously know better. Shame on you for perpetuating the ignorance and squelching enlightenment.

Ziggy, now that was a real "tear jerker" story ........ but don't expect me to believe a word of it. Sounds like something you "pulled out" ........ or someone told you.

In all my years of reading your "anti-coal" postings on these Forums, ..... not once, ...... never a time, ..... did you ever mention ANYTHING related to what you posted above. Now you talked about your father being an Educator, about you bagging groceries, about owning/operating a little manufacturing plant, about owning/operating a garage/wrecker service and about all the things you hate about coal companies.

So Zigster, just why would you wait so many years, like 7 or 8, ...... to tell me your bestest "Why I hate coal companies" story?

The simple answer is Zigster, you wouldn't have. You wouldn't have ....... and that is why your above story is bogus as hell, ........ just a bogus as the picture you posted claiming it was "coal dust" floating in the air over top a school.

Your creditability for truthfulness in posting "stories" and "pictures" lacks a lot to be desired.

ziggy wrote:No one is trying the outweigh the "misery inhibitors". All we're doing is demanding that coal operators be required to do what the law says they are to do.

Right Ziggy, and relative to your above "story", ...... West Virginia Laws governing "mineral rights and their extraction" says that the "extractors" of said has a legal right to "go get er" and if the surface resident/owner doesn't like it, ....... "tuff shidt". And if said hinders or delays their "going to ger er" ....... they can be held liable for any lo$$e$ incurred because of said delay.

.

You are full of shit, Sam.

Every word of it is true. And I can take you or anyone else there and show you where I was born, the creek, the bench and high wall on that old strip mine, and a few neighbors who are still there who can verify it all. And if you can get hold of our friend Randall here, he can tell you just where I grew up- across the hill in the next hollow from where he grew up on the other fork of Tuppers Creek.

And that's what pisses you off, Sam- that when I tell you something that that's the way it was/is.

Often I don't show my hand until challenged to. I figured that sooner or later you would be telling us that I had never experienced the miseries of strip mining. And when you told us yesterday that I had not lived in coal country and didn't know anything about it, that was sufficient challenge for me to call your bluff.

Eat your heart out, Sam. You figured wrong- again. You have been had- not by me, but by yourself-once again. You and George Bush will never learn.

ziggy wrote:Whether the lawlessness is by coal operators directly, or by their bought and paid for government regulators who take shortcuts around the laws in issuing permits to strip mine operators, it is no less an atmosphere of lawlessness.

OOPS, there ya go with your "circle jerk" again.

The fault is with all coal mining. No, the fault is with the Laws governing coal mining. No, the fault is with the coal operators not obeying the Laws. No, the fault is with the Politicians not enforcing the Laws. No, the fault is with the coal operators paying off the Politicians not to enforce the Laws. No, the fault is with all coal mining. No, the fault is with the Laws governing ...................

Round n' round ya go, Zigster, ......... where ya start and where ya stop, ....... no one knows.

.

ziggy wrote:You are full of shit, Sam.

Every word of it is true. And I can take you or anyone else there and show you where I was born, the creek, the bench and high wall on that old strip mine, and a few neighbors who are still there who can verify it all. And if you can get hold of our friend Randall here, he can tell you it's true.

And that's what pisses you off, Sam- that when I tell you something that that's the way it was/is.

Often I don't show my hand until challenged to. I figured that sooner or later you would be telling us that I had never experienced the miseries of strip mining. And when you told us yesterday that I had not lived in coal country and didn't know anything about it, that was sufficient challenge for me to call your bluff.

Eat your heart out, Sam. You figured wrong- again. You have been had- not by me, but by yourself-once again. You and George Bush will never learn.

Right on, Zigster, ........ RIGHT ON.

You have been "waiting patiently" nigh on to ten (10) years for me to "challenge you" on that.

Right on, Zigster, ........ I believe that, ....... sure nuff I believe that.

I'll call my Mother, ........ she'll believe yu too.

.

SamCogar wrote: West Virginia Laws governing "mineral rights and their extraction" says that the "extractors" of said has a legal right to "go get er" and if the surface resident/owner doesn't like it, ....... "tuff shidt". And if said hinders or delays their "going to ger er" ....... they can be held liable for any lo$$e$ incurred because of said delay.

And your point is, just what? That a coal operator has a "right" to burn down someone else's barn- or to threaten to? Or to plow out farmers' fences far away from the lands on which he is strip mining?

The "right" to extract the minerals confers no "right" to injure OTHER landowners down stream or down the road.

Zig, why don't ya post another "coal dust" picture.

.

SamCogar wrote:Round n' round ya go, Zigster, ......... where ya start and where ya stop, ....... no one knows.

.

He'll stop when coal mining does Sam. That is his agenda!

SamCogar wrote:Zig, why don't ya post another "coal dust" picture.

.

I don't have any at the moment. But you can take your camera and go down into MTR country and take a zillion of them just about any day, Sam.