Bad News for Bush Haters

I agree that the people are ultimately to blame, but how do you affect a society if not through the media?

Very well said Mike.

I don't think testing would change anything, at least not in the short run Terry. Maybe if it is implemented and continued for years it might, but in the short run, about all it will do is lower the number of voters.

The problem is, we're a superficial nation and the vast majority of the people can't see past the nose on their faces and we never face real challenges because we're too busy worrying about social issues.

If the Dems were honest pacifists or even honest "just war" theorists, I might be happy to listen to them. But many of them have turned this war into a propaganda tool. I NEVER hear on the tv or on the internet

The republicans have used the war as a propaganda tool, also.

"We are fighting the over there so we don't have to fight them here".[about Iraq]


I agree that the people are ultimately to blame, but how do you affect a society if not through the media?

By teaching them to ignore the partisan "opinion" and glean for facts.

The media wants ratings. If Americans didn't eat it up so uncomplainingly, they wouldn't give it to us like they do.

I don't think testing would change anything, at least not in the short run Terry. Maybe if it is implemented and continued for years it might, but in the short run, about all it will do is lower the number of voters.

Who said anything about testing?

Perhaps the criteria is that you must pay taxes. Perhaps the criteria is that you must be a high school graduate or have a GED. Perhaps the criteria is that you must own property.

I dunno. I know the system is broken by "bread and circuses".

TerryRC wrote:If the Dems were honest pacifists or even honest "just war" theorists, I might be happy to listen to them. But many of them have turned this war into a propaganda tool. I NEVER hear on the tv or on the internet

The republicans have used the war as a propaganda tool, also.

"We are fighting the over there so we don't have to fight them here".[about Iraq]


I agree that the people are ultimately to blame, but how do you affect a society if not through the media?

By teaching them to ignore the partisan "opinion" and glean for facts.

The media wants ratings. If Americans didn't eat it up so uncomplainingly, they wouldn't give it to us like they do.

How do you go about "teaching" Americans without using the media? Forced indoctrination camps?

Sure the Republicans are using the war as propaganda, but "we fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" is at least a clear policy position. "We hate Bush" and "Bush is a liar" will not guide us in or out of future wars.

Incidentally, John McCain condemned Phil Gramm's quotes about the public.

I say that McCain's rebuke of Gramm just shows how spineless and unprincipaled the man is. I hardly think that lack of conviction is a Democratic franchise. I may think their case is bigger, but when McCain also stands for nothing, he is no better. If he wanted to say that Gramm was speaking for himself, and that was his right, that would have been fine.

I think this is shaping up as a November battle between two people very unfit for the office. I hope John McCain wins in the same sense that I hope my toothache merely needs a filling and not a root canal.

We all pay taxes, a diploma or GED is a peice of paper that more then 80% have a high school diploma (that doesn't take into account those with a GED) and if you're going to limit it to property owners, shouldn't you at least put a mininum value on it? After all, any Joe blow can buy a trailer and a quarter acre. It should be worth at least $250K to ensure we're getting 'smart' property owners, don't you think!!!

If you want to improve the knowledge of voters, the only way to do it is to test them.

How do you go about "teaching" Americans without using the media? Forced indoctrination camps?

Parents like you teaching their kids to think rather than recite. Turning off the TV every once in a while and picking up a book. Fighting the swell of anti-intellectualism that seems to be on the rise in this country.

Sure the Republicans are using the war as propaganda, but "we fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" is at least a clear policy position. "We hate Bush" and "Bush is a liar" will not guide us in or out of future wars.

So, they are whores also, the debate is just over who is looser?

I rest my case about how bankrupt the system is.

As bankrupt as it is, it's still the best in the history of the world.

We all pay taxes, a diploma or GED is a peice of paper that more then 80% have a high school diploma (that doesn't take into account those with a GED) and if you're going to limit it to property owners, shouldn't you at least put a mininum value on it? After all, any Joe blow can buy a trailer and a quarter acre. It should be worth at least $250K to ensure we're getting 'smart' property owners, don't you think!!!

We all file for taxes, Aaron. We do not all pay them.

If Joe blow can afford to buy a trailer and a 1/4 acre, good for him. I'd rather have him voting than the people living in subsidized housing and on the dole.

The fact is that I trust people that pay into the system and have property that they protect and put roots down on to be more responsible than those that don't.

I said I didn't know how to fix the system, only that it is broken.

I don't see you coming up with any ideas.

As bankrupt as it is, it's still the best in the history of the world.

Very patriotic. Do you really know enough history to honestly make that statement, however?

I love my country. Does that mean I must close my eyes to its flaws?

TerryRC wrote:How do you go about "teaching" Americans without using the media? Forced indoctrination camps?

Parents like you teaching their kids to think rather than recite. Turning off the TV every once in a while and picking up a book. Fighting the swell of anti-intellectualism that seems to be on the rise in this country.

Sure the Republicans are using the war as propaganda, but "we fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" is at least a clear policy position. "We hate Bush" and "Bush is a liar" will not guide us in or out of future wars.

So, they are whores also, the debate is just over who is looser?

I rest my case about how bankrupt the system is.

You never had to make that case with me, Terry.

As far as parents like me being responsible, sure, but you still haven't told us how you intend to convince many parents across the country to do so except through the media. What's yer plan for turning your ideal into a reality?

As far as parents like me being responsible, sure, but you still haven't told us how you intend to convince many parents across the country to do so except through the media. What's yer plan for turning your ideal into a reality?

Plan? Start at home and talk to your neighbors. Promote "discussion" groups. Form an organization that promotes third parties.

That is all I'm doing. My born-again neighbor friends have already become more critical of the government (even the republicans) and rely on the TV less for news.

They also use the word "liberal" less than they used to.

Yes, we all pay taxes Terry, in one form or another. Whether it's at the gas pump, the checkout line at Krogers or via a 1040, we all pay them.

And yes, I did come up with a method that would immediately imporve the knowledge of the voter.

Require testing to vote. Simple and fairly easy. It's required to become a citizen so why not to vote? Come up with a 10 to 20 general knowlege test that one has to take before they can either register or vote. If they don't pass it, their vote doesn't count.

Require testing to vote. Simple and fairly easy. It's required to become a citizen so why not to vote? Come up with a 10 to 20 general knowlege test that one has to take before they can either register or vote. If they don't pass it, their vote doesn't count.

If you live on the dole or social security, when you pay sales taxes (many people don't have an income tax burden) you are just redistributing taxes - giving the government back the money they gave to you.

Come up with a 10 to 20 general knowlege test that one has to take before they can either register or vote. If they don't pass it, their vote doesn't count.

A "general" knowledge test can be manipulated too readily. How about solving a quadratic equation and the booth will open?

A "general" knowledge test can be manipulated too readily. How about solving a quadratic equation and the booth will open?

How about something that requires some reason, logic and common sense. I've met too many book smart people that couldn't can't tell their arse from a hole in the ground.

How about something that requires some reason, logic and common sense. I've met too many book smart people that couldn't can't tell their arse from a hole in the ground.

Solving a quadratic equation takes reason and logic. Define common sense. How does it have more to do with "common knowledge" that it does with math?

What is general knowledge in Fargo, N. Dakota is probably not the same in Manhattan.

Solving a quadratic equation takes reason and logic.

It also requires specific knowledge of mathematic principals and/or equations and unfortunately, the majority of people can't even reconcile a checkbook without a computer program, (many of them much smarter then either of us) so I don't see that as a legitimate way of testing.

And common sense and common knowledge are not the same things. There is a world of difference.

Sam gave the best definition of common sense that I've read when Billy hypocrite from the Gazette forum ask a similar question to yours. I'm going out the door so I don't have time right now to get into it but perhaps he could expound his wisdom and knowledge for us.

It also requires specific knowledge of mathematic principals and/or equations and unfortunately, the majority of people can't even reconcile a checkbook without a computer program, (many of them much smarter then either of us) so I don't see that as a legitimate way of testing.

Just because YOU don't see it as a legit way of measuring intelligence, doesn't mean is isn't.

Eighth graders learn to do it. You really think the expectations are too high?

The majority of people can't balance a checkbook without help? Are you sure?

I think you to be exaggerating (quel surprise!). If however, you are not, do you really think those people can be RESPONSIBLE voters?

When you have the time, of course...

TerryRC wrote:
Eighth graders learn to do it. You really think the expectations are too high?

Your neighbors were once 8th Graders, ...... give them a a quadratic equation to solve.




.

Your neighbors were once 8th Graders, ...... give them a a quadratic equation to solve.

I know at least three of them can. We take turns helping the neighbor kids with their schoolwork.

Your point?

Mine is that, if as Aaron assures us, Americans are too ignorant to balance their checkbook without help, they are likely too ignorant to vote responsibly.

TerryRC wrote:Your neighbors were once 8th Graders, ...... give them a a quadratic equation to solve.

I know at least three of them can. We take turns helping the neighbor kids with their schoolwork.

Your point?

Mine is that, if as Aaron assures us, Americans are too ignorant to balance their checkbook without help, they are likely too ignorant to vote responsibly.

Interesting, TRC, ..... "We take turns helping", ...... mighty interesting.

It has nothing to do with ignorance. An idiot savant can could possibly solve every known math problem in the world but couldn't spell "it". It proves nothing very little.

Interesting, TRC, ..... "We take turns helping", ...... mighty interesting.

What is interesting about it? They come up and knock on the door. If I or my wife aren't home, they run down the road.

As to my own kids, I don't need to send them to the neighbors for help.

Spit it out, Sammy.

It has nothing to do with ignorance. An idiot savant can could possibly solve every known math problem in the world but couldn't spell "it". It proves nothing very little.

And they are how rare, Aaron? I doubt the 1 in 100,000 (I'm guessing at that number) is going to throw off the election much.

Sorry, if you can't balance a checkbook without help, you ARE ignorant.

How can you responsibly vote for people that will be overseeing government finance when you can't oversee your own?