Bad News for Bush Haters

Aaron wrote:You're telling me you told me what you thought now but when I stated you agreed with Sherm yesterday by posting those numbers, you said, no you didn't agree with him and all you were doing was posting numbers.

If it helps any, Aaron, if Sherm were seriously suggesting that there is a significant difference between most WV Democratic politicians and most WV Republican politicians, then no, I would not agree with him.

But I think that Sherm understands better than any of you do that the difference between most WV Democrat politicians and most WV Repuiblican politicians is so slight as to be almost unnoticeable, if at all- that most all of them sell their political souls to the coal industry for far less than 20 pieces of silver.

But I think Sherm does enjoy the hell out of jerking you guys' chains!

And he obviously gave you all one hell of a yank last week and this!



P.S.- Enjoy your economic research trip to Charleston.

Arch Moore may very well have left this state bankrupt but West Virginian's were working.

And the reason he had the cash is because that's the ONLY way you guys do business. Seems you're all for sale.

ziggy wrote:You give Arch Moore credit for what you presume to be good things that took place on one of his terms as governor. But you made several excuses for the 1957-61 Underwood years. My question is why is it OK to give credit to a governor for good things that happen under his watch, but make excuses for another governor because such good things did not happen under his watch. In other words, why is Arch Moore do any more political credit for the "good" things that happened under his watch than Underwood is due political criticism for the not so good things under his watch?

Ziggy, when you get tired of flapping your jaws on that subject ..... why don't you tell us what the socio-economic status of the State was that FORCED the Democrats to support and vote for Cecil Underwood and Arch Moore.



.

ziggy wrote:

So what did Underwood do bad during his first term?

I didn't say that he did anything bad. I didn't even say that he did anything, period. I simply posted the numbers furnished by WV BEP.

YES, you have been doing that for the past 5 or 6 years ..... to support Sherman's accusations ........ when you knew damn well those figures were being used bogusly by Sherman.



.

If I had the numbers sherman and Zig had I'd present them exactly the same way. They appeared to prove their case and their predisposition that times were hard. Ziggy presented the numbers without comment. Nothing dishonest about that.

If some governors are due more or less credit for the condition during their terms it is because of the Modern Budget Amendment. Before 1968 the Board of Public Works presented the budget. After it, the governor predicted revenue and proposed the budget alone. There was a genuine fear of executive power when the Virginia constitution was written. Ivor Boiarsky saw it for the cluster it was. There was a very clear dichotomy in 1968. If Arch Moore had one successful administration (he did) it was solely because he understood the Modern Budget Amendment. After his first term the Legislature made it impossible to amass huge budget surpluses.

Having said that, Arch Moore was an embarassment to all West Virginians. Jim Haught's column on the Gazette now is not accurate. It is a hit piece on the current Congresswoman. But he was an embarassment. The federal government prosecuted John Connally. The prosecution failed. It was one crook with a hundred-count indictment against Connally. Diversified Mountaineer was Connally all over again. Of course Moore beat the rap - Connally had shown him how.

I was nine years old in 1960. I don't remember bleak times.

shermangeneral wrote:Maybe you should ask about the episodes of clandestine meetings at the Charleston city dump and the stuffing of $100 bills in pockets while hunkered down in the car seat etc.?

Maybe her sources forgot that part.

(not to mention the bags of cash in the office drawers, etc.)

Here's a question for you Sherman.

Who exactly was Arch Moore paying all of this money to?

ziggy wrote:I am not defending WV Democrats. But what would WV Republicans do differently were they to have the governor's office and the legislature? I would predict that after several nominally "Republican" statehouse terms, coal companies would still effectively run the state's regulatory agencies, would still effectively control the legislature, would still have West Virginia operating as a virtual economic colony of and for the coal industry, and that the state Chamber of Commerce would still be whining about a "poor economic climate" as a way to keep new and competing businesses away from West Virginia and as a way to blackmail the legislature for fewer and lower taxes on existing corporations- some of the most profitable corporations in the world.

You see Stephanie, you continue to make the mistake of thinking that there is some significant difference between most WV Democrats and most WV Republicans. But other than the D or the R behind their name, there isn't a dime's worth of difference between them.

Your speculation may be correct, but we don't know. Folks like Sherm keep making the same choice over and over again, expect a different result, and then blame the losers for nothing ever changing.

shermangeneral wrote:Well zig Steph seems to have sipped the koolaid ref. Arch Moore.

Maybe you should ask about the episodes of clandestine meetings at the Charleston city dump and the stuffing of $100 bills in pockets while hunkered down in the car seat etc.?

Maybe her sources forgot that part.

(not to mention the bags of cash in the office drawers, etc.)

Well Sherm, show me the proof that all Republicans were involved in these dealings. Show me how things were better in this state under the leadership of the Democrats Smith, Rockefeller, and Caperton with terms surrounding his.

Conditions must have been pretty dire to elect these scoundrels Moore & Caperton after all of their bad acts during their first terms. Right? Must be why West Virgnians elected them back into office after all their previous bad deeds.

Must be Steph.

But please recall I gave Caperton credit for re-instituting fiscal stability to the state and even beginning to address the unfunded liabilities in the pension plans etc.

Also Arch Moore could have been one of our better Governors if he had not got caught up in all the trappings of office.

For better or worse he did seem to get things done his first term.

(although he left it to others to pay some of the bills.)

Well Sherm, it is certainly suprising to see you give him some credit. Refreshing even. Perhaps in your moment of clarity, you can answer the previous question I ask you.

To whom was Arch A. Moore paying all of this money to that he had in his car and his office?

If you gave Caperton credit for anything you wouldn't persist in calling him a republican.

I dont believe I called Caperton a republican.

You guys keep attributing what I say to zig and what he says you attribute to me.

I'm still waiting on a response to my question Sherm.

Stephanie wrote:
Conditions must have been pretty dire to elect these scoundrels Moore & Caperton after all of their bad acts during their first terms. Right? Must be why West Virgnians elected them back into office after all their previous bad deeds.

shermangeneral wrote:Must be Steph.

But please recall I gave Caperton credit for re-instituting fiscal stability to the state and even beginning to address the unfunded liabilities in the pension plans etc.

ohio county wrote:
If you gave Caperton credit for anything you wouldn't persist in calling him a republican.

shermangeneral wrote:I dont believe I called Caperton a republican.

Why do I need to recall you give Caperton(D) credit for anything, unless you're insinuating he is a Republican?

shermangeneral wrote:Arch Moore left with the state dam near bankrupt.

Medical providers would not accept PEIA.

And I saw in the paper the guy who brought the gate to protect the Governor's Mansion came to repossess it for lack of payment.

Hell they didnt even pay the phone bill.

Give me a break....

"All truth passes through 3 stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
-- Arthur Schopenhauer
(1788-1860) German philosopher

I was just responding to your post Steph...

"Conditions must have been pretty dire to elect these scoundrels Moore & Caperton after all of their bad acts during their first terms. Right? Must be why West Virgnians elected them back into office after all their previous bad deeds."

Ah, I see......I posted Caperton instead of Underwood.

I have no memory of these men so no matter how recent they are all sort of intangible to me.

Stephanie wrote:Ah, I see......I posted Caperton instead of Underwood.

I have no memory of these men so no matter how recent they are all sort of intangible to me.

That's OK, Stephanie. No one else could distinguish between Caperton and most Republicans either.

Well then if you meant Underwood I will have to think awhile before I can think of something he did.

But I will try.

But I did say some good stuff about Moore.

Yes, I meant Underwood.

ziggy wrote:

Stephanie wrote:Ah, I see......I posted Caperton instead of Underwood.

I have no memory of these men so no matter how recent they are all sort of intangible to me.

That's OK, Stephanie. No one else could distinguish between Caperton and most Republicans either.

Really. How many Republicans immediately institute a major tax upon entering into office and when questioned why they never mentioned such a tax during the campaign say they didn't realize how bad the situation was?

Really. How many Republicans immediately institute a major tax upon entering into office and when questioned why they never mentioned such a tax during the campaign say they didn't realize how bad the situation was?

So how would Arch Moore, had he been re-elected in 1988- have handled the near bankruptcy of the state? Hell, the gas company was even threatening to turn off the gas at the statehouse because of unpaid gas bills.

You didn't answer my question Frank?

shermangeneral wrote:Must be Steph.

But please recall I gave Caperton credit for re-instituting fiscal stability to the state and even beginning to address the unfunded liabilities in the pension plans etc.

Also Arch Moore could have been one of our better Governors if he had not got caught up in all the trappings of office.

For better or worse he did seem to get things done his first term.

(although he left it to others to pay some of the bills.)

Since the Democrats had charged up about $15 BILLION in DEBT ...... he had to leave most of it for them to pay off.

Which the Democrats didn't, ....... they just increased it to its current $24 BILLION IN UNFUNDED LIABILITIES.

Part of which you are currently enjoying the benefit of.


There ain't nobody worth 30 years of retirement pay at the same rate that it only took them 20 years to acquire.

,

.

Aaron wrote:You didn't answer my question Frank?

You duck questions all the time here, Aaron. I answered your question with another queston- as you often do. If you don't like that, then ask your questions to someone else.