NO MATTER WHO WINS THE ELECTION

I don't think that being satisfied with a day well spent is at all bad, and I agree that one does not need religion to feel that way.

Our difference is that I believe there are much bigger fish to fry than how one feels at the end of the day. Still, I respect your "spirituality" or lack thereof a thousand times more than the religionist who does not let their doctrines affect how they live and treat other people.

Well my Christian faith is not one that makes me think people are good or that the world is improving. Quite the contrary, my faith in Jesus Christ is that He will return to make things right, and anyone who trusts in Him is forgiven, and anyone who wishes to come to Him may do so.

I don't know how people even managed to live in civilized societies and get along with each other for centuries before the Jesus/God came along.

Our difference is that I believe there are much bigger fish to fry than how one feels at the end of the day.

Name one.

SheikBen wrote:I don't think that being satisfied with a day well spent is at all bad, and I agree that one does not need religion to feel that way.

Our difference is that I believe there are much bigger fish to fry than how one feels at the end of the day. Still, I respect your "spirituality" or lack thereof a thousand times more than the religionist who does not let their doctrines affect how they live and treat other people.

I would agree with you, except that Aaron would call me an arrogant ass again if I did.

Did I leave out pompous?

For the record Frank, I didn't call you an arrogant ass because of a religious or spiritual discussion. I called you an arrogant ass because of your responses to ME that involved religion and your demands that I prove something I don't feel I need to.

Perhaps instead of trying to 'put me in my place' you should continue your conversation with Mike. If I want to participate, I will.

ziggy wrote:

SheikBen wrote:I don't think that being satisfied with a day well spent is at all bad, and I agree that one does not need religion to feel that way.

Our difference is that I believe there are much bigger fish to fry than how one feels at the end of the day. Still, I respect your "spirituality" or lack thereof a thousand times more than the religionist who does not let their doctrines affect how they live and treat other people.

I would agree with you, except that Aaron would call me an arrogant ass again if I did.

OK, Mike. Aaron says it's OK for me to agree with you, and so I do.

Considering the similarities of your response to the childish games my ex wife used to play, my question to you Frank would be, are you a feminist or a whinny little???

ziggy wrote:

SheikBen wrote:I don't think that being satisfied with a day well spent is at all bad, and I agree that one does not need religion to feel that way.

Our difference is that I believe there are much bigger fish to fry than how one feels at the end of the day. Still, I respect your "spirituality" or lack thereof a thousand times more than the religionist who does not let their doctrines affect how they live and treat other people.

I would agree with you, except that Aaron would call me an arrogant ass again if I did.

And now that you've managed to drag me into the conversation Frank, I have a question regarding the above statement.

What exactly is it you are agreeing with Mike on here? It can't be the statement of one not needing religion to feel a certain way because that was Mike agreeing with you.

So are you agreeing with Mike that there are bigger fish to fry or are you saying you agree with him that you respect your own spirituality more then that of a false religionist who does not let their doctrines affect how they live and treat other people?

I mean, if it's the last one, I've got to say, that reeks a little bit of pride and where I come from, pride's not a good thing.

So what exactly are you agreeing with him on?

I agree with what Mike said, to wit:

SheikBen wrote:
I don't think that being satisfied with a day well spent is at all bad, and I agree that one does not need religion to feel that way.

Our difference is that I believe there are much bigger fish to fry than how one feels at the end of the day. Still, I respect your "spirituality" or lack thereof a thousand times more than the religionist who does not let their doctrines affect how they live and treat other people.

So you agree with Mike that there are much bigger fish to fry knowing that he was specifically talking about one's soul and their salvation when they stand BEFORE Jesus Christ, son of Jehovah, I AM that I AM, creator of all on Judgment Day!!!

Being that you agree with Mike that there are much bigger fish to fry and that you are specifically talking about one's soul and their salvation when they stand BEFORE Jesus Christ, son of Jehovah, I AM that I AM, creator of all on Judgment Day Frank, why do you feel the need to talk down to fellow Christians and question their personal beliefs?

That is not what Mike said. If Mike wants to retract what he said and say something else, I will re-assess whether I agree with him.

In the meantime, you might do well to let Mike speak for himself.

TerryRC wrote:Well my Christian faith is not one that makes me think people are good or that the world is improving. Quite the contrary, my faith in Jesus Christ is that He will return to make things right, and anyone who trusts in Him is forgiven, and anyone who wishes to come to Him may do so.

I don't know how people even managed to live in civilized societies and get along with each other for centuries before the Jesus/God came along.

Our difference is that I believe there are much bigger fish to fry than how one feels at the end of the day.

Name one.

I believe that one such "bigger fish" is how one feels near the end of one's life. It is good to feel good at the end of a day. And I think it would be even better to feel good at the end of one's life.

TerryRC wrote:Well my Christian faith is not one that makes me think people are good or that the world is improving. Quite the contrary, my faith in Jesus Christ is that He will return to make things right, and anyone who trusts in Him is forgiven, and anyone who wishes to come to Him may do so.

I don't know how people even managed to live in civilized societies and get along with each other for centuries before the Jesus/God came along.

Our difference is that I believe there are much bigger fish to fry than how one feels at the end of the day.

Name one.

Well Terry how one feels about one's self is of no value before God. I'm sure Hitler thought himself a swell fellow. It is far more important what God thinks of us than what we think of us. I believe that Jesus Christ's sacrifice allows God to be both merciful and just. Sin is not brushed aside but it is forgiven.

Having said that, I don't think there is the least bit wrong with having worked a full day, having tried your best, and sleeping well in the realization that you did the best you could. I don't begrudge Stephanie for feeling good about how she is living and what she is accomplishing. The goal is not to think poorly of yourself, but rather to avoid thinking of yourself excessively.

It is far more important what God thinks of us than what we think of us.

Setting what we think of ourselves aside for a moment, Mike, which do you think is more important- what God thinks of us, our what our neighbors think of us?

Hi Zig,

I would say, without hesitation, that it is more important what God thinks of us than what our neighbors think of us.

HOWEVER (in bold just for emphasis)

I believe that the more we appreciate God's kindness and goodness to us (the rain falls on the wicked and the just), particularly those of us living in the US, the more compelled we will feel to love our neighbors and do well by them. A natural outgrowth of my Christian faith should be to quickly forgive others, as great forgiveness has been shown to me; and to exercise mercy, as great mercy has been shown to me.

A neighbor who quickly shows mercy and quickly forgives is a good neighbor. Love for God leads naturally to love for one's neighbor, and if the latter is missing one fears for the former.

And on the subject of what our neighbors think of us, they can only judge by appearances which are frequently wrong.

My neighbor in West Virginia, knowing me to be a Christian, told my wife that he worried about having a beer in my presence. Of course I don't advocate drunkenness, but I had never seen him drunk. He was worried about nothing. He would mind his language around my wife and I, which we appreciated. If he had used foul language, it would not have been the first time that we had heard it, however.

So I think our neighbors very often (even good ones like the one I had in WVA) have the wrong impression of us, and God never does.

ziggy wrote:In the meantime, you might do well to let Mike speak for himself.

I'm not speaking for Mike as he speaks for himself quite well. In fact, I would say he speaks for himself as well as anyone else on this board. He doesn't try to play word games or manipulate conversations for arguments sake as we do Frank.

Saying that, I'd say I wasn't off too much on how I interpreted his statement.

I also don't think I'm off base regarding what part of Mike’s conversation you agreed with, and that was his respect for your spirituality part.

That is what I’m confident you were agreeing with and imho, you were pretty much patting yourself on the back for living a good life while so called Christians didn’t live according to their faith.

And that way I see it Frank, that’s pride and if you’ve read the bible, you know God frowns on that.

My thoughts.

Well Terry how one feels about one's self is of no value before God. I'm sure Hitler thought himself a swell fellow. It is far more important what God thinks of us than what we think of us. I believe that Jesus Christ's sacrifice allows God to be both merciful and just. Sin is not brushed aside but it is forgiven.

When god knocks on my door running for office, I'll listen to him.

People lived in civilized societies and were decent to each other long before the time of christ. Very few of them were "Hitlers".

We are social animals and will get along with each other for no damn reason at all.

If you go to bed at night looking back on your day and how you were to others and make an effort to improve your failings, you should have damn few regrets at the end of your life.

Having said that, I don't think there is the least bit wrong with having worked a full day, having tried your best, and sleeping well in the realization that you did the best you could. I don't begrudge Stephanie for feeling good about how she is living and what she is accomplishing. The goal is not to think poorly of yourself, but rather to avoid thinking of yourself excessively.

No. Sometimes the goal IS to think poorly of ourselves. None of us are so perfect we can't use some work.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that us agnostics have no hope. that would be hubris on your part.

A neighbor who quickly shows mercy and quickly forgives is a good neighbor. Love for God leads naturally to love for one's neighbor, and if the latter is missing one fears for the former.

Bullshit.

My neighbor up the road is a bible-thumping holy roller. He wouldn't piss on me if I was on fire.

I, on the other hand, show up every time someone is building a barn, pouring a walk, putting on a roof...

Arrogance on your part, fearing that non-christians are more likely to be bad neighbors.

TerryRC wrote:If you go to bed at night looking back on your day and how you were to others and make an effort to improve your failings, you should have damn few regrets at the end of your life.

And the good book says pretty much the same thing Terry. You really should give it a read. Some of the most beautiful writing in history can be found in there.

And who knows, maybe you'll find a bit of tolerance in there as well.

TerryRC wrote:A neighbor who quickly shows mercy and quickly forgives is a good neighbor. Love for God leads naturally to love for one's neighbor, and if the latter is missing one fears for the former.

Bullshit.

My neighbor up the road is a bible-thumping holy roller. He wouldn't piss on me if I was on fire.

I, on the other hand, show up every time someone is building a barn, pouring a walk, putting on a roof...

Arrogance on your part, fearing that non-christians are more likely to be bad neighbors.

TerryRC,

There will always be examples of folks whose activities do not match their professions.

I, for one, would gladly piss on you if you were on fire.

Aaron wrote:

TerryRC wrote:If you go to bed at night looking back on your day and how you were to others and make an effort to improve your failings, you should have damn few regrets at the end of your life.

And the good book says pretty much the same thing Terry. You really should give it a read. Some of the most beautiful writing in history can be found in there.

And who knows, maybe you'll find a bit of tolerance in there as well.

I fear he's not looking for it, Aaron. As far as I can tell, the man has come across some rather disagreeable people in his life (and I am truly sorry for this) and that has pretty well soured him to the concept of God.

The Bible says to look upon yourself with sober reflection, which fits in well with Terry's suggestion that we be critical of ourselves. I merely argued that our own self-examination should be limited--we should get over ourselves to the extent possible. I regularly wonder when people tell me they don't like themselves why they feel the need to think highly of themselves, or about themselves at all.

To put it another way, I think it is more healthy (and more Christian) of me to realize that I play tennis well and then to move on with my life. I remain a sinner in desperate need of Jesus Christ. If I dwell on how well I play tennis, or pretend that I play worse than I do, then I do no one any favors. I reckon that Terry is good at what he does. Much better that he accept this and "move on" then dwell on himself for good or ill.

SheikBen wrote:

TerryRC wrote:A neighbor who quickly shows mercy and quickly forgives is a good neighbor. Love for God leads naturally to love for one's neighbor, and if the latter is missing one fears for the former.

Bullshit.

My neighbor up the road is a bible-thumping holy roller. He wouldn't piss on me if I was on fire.

I, on the other hand, show up every time someone is building a barn, pouring a walk, putting on a roof...

Arrogance on your part, fearing that non-christians are more likely to be bad neighbors.

TerryRC,

There will always be examples of folks whose activities do not match their professions.

I, for one, would gladly piss on you if you were on fire.

OMG! Now I must thank you! That was awesome, Mike. No offense intended, Terry...but that was simply terrific!

And the good book says pretty much the same thing Terry. You really should give it a read. Some of the most beautiful writing in history can be found in there.

And people were doing it BEFORE the Big Book of Myths came out. What is your point?

And who knows, maybe you'll find a bit of tolerance in there as well.

I've seen examples of "christian tolerance". I'll pass, thanks.

To put it another way, I think it is more healthy (and more Christian) of me to realize that I play tennis well and then to move on with my life. I remain a sinner in desperate need of Jesus Christ. If I dwell on how well I play tennis, or pretend that I play worse than I do, then I do no one any favors. I reckon that Terry is good at what he does. Much better that he accept this and "move on" then dwell on himself for good or ill.

How you play tennis is not the same as how you treat others.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

As far as my view on religion, I was raised catholic. Religion just couldn't answer my questions.

As far as my prejudices go, it seems they are justified. Even you, a person fairly moderate in your judgments of others, said you would be leery of a non-christian as your neighbor.

Many of my "christian" neighbors are the type to sing their "hallelujahs" on Sunday and sleep with the pastor's wife on Monday but to you they are more "trustworthy than me?

That says it all for me.