Deja Duke--all over again.

ziggy wrote:Once again you do not know what the hell you are talking about. Sherm took regular retirement with WV SP almost 20 years ago, based on his years of service to that agency.

Then he didn't start his current family until just about the time he retired, ......RIGHT?

I believe I remember him talking about what his 2 kids were going to do, like go to college or whatever.

Zig, from what Sherm previously told us, he was still "in diapers" in the mid 50's ....... cause he just barely membered when Underwood laid off those 600,000 West Virginians.

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ziggy wrote:You can think that race has "nothing to do with it" if you want to. But that is not what the statistics tell us. For example, black men in America are far more likely to be subjected to "probable cause" searches than are white men. And we only have to look as far away as Charleston, or Montgomery, West Virginia to see law enforcement racial profiling in action.

NO SHIDT, ..... Zigster, ...... who clued you in on that fact?

Why you are so smart n' clever that I just betcha that when you are out inspecting one of those "wind generator" sites ......... and see all the dead birds n' bats laying around on the ground, that via your brilliant deducting mental powers you quickly figure out the "probable cause" of said ........ was a kid with a BB gun and you go looking for him to have him arrested.

GOOD SHOW, Ziggy, ...... but on the other issue, you keep ignoring these facts, to wit:

US Bureau of Justice Statistics
Prison Statistics - Summary findings - On June 30, 2008 —

2,310,984 prisoners were held in federal or state prisons or in local jails

At midyear 2008, there were 4,777 black male inmates per 100,000 black males held in state and federal prisons and local jails, compared to 1,760 Hispanic male inmates per 100,000 Hispanic males and 727 white male inmates per 100,000 white males. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

Now Zigster, that was:

4,777 black male inmates per 100,000 black males
verses
727 white male inmates per 100,000 white males

Given said, I can see why you would claim "racial discrimination" for why black men in America are far more likely to be subjected to "probable cause" searches.

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Ziggy,

Unfortunately, the worst neighborhoods are very often the ones that are predominately black. A quick trip through Detroit, Gary, the south side of Chicago, East Cleveland, Oakland, etc., shows that this is so.

Now it is obviously not a result of blacks being inferior; however, whatever the cause it is true that black males in particular are engaged in a disproportionate amount of crime. Does that make every black person a suspect? Obviously not.

However, when blacks are "overrepresented" in the criminal justice system, we need better answers than "racist cops." Until we can actually confront the problems of the inner cities, demonizing the police will be very counterproductive.

One thing I find intolerably annoying is that whenever a kid in Chicago shoots another kid, people blame lack of school funding or the gun manufacturers. Someone blame the farging kid for a change!

And since none of us knows exactly what happened between Crowley and Gates, we can only wonder whether race was involved or not.

HORSESHIDT, the Offiicer was in process of "vacating the scene" but Gates was following him spouting his racist accusations.

How do you know? And which, even if it did happen that way, Gates had every right to do so at his own home.

And Gates would have followed him clear out "into the street" in hopes of attracting a "big crowd" ...... of supporters.

And if it had happened that way, it could reasonably be considered disorderly conduct. But it didn't. Arrests should be based on what people actually do- not on speculation about what they might have done.

And it is a proven fact, ...... its best not to try "cuffing" someone after the crowd joins in the fracus.

There is no indication that there was or about to be any "crowd" anywhere near Gates home- other than the crowd of cops who the officer told his dispatcher to keep "rolling" toward the scene.

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:You can think that race has "nothing to do with it" if you want to. But that is not what the statistics tell us. For example, black men in America are far more likely to be subjected to "probable cause" searches than are white men. And we only have to look as far away as Charleston, or Montgomery, West Virginia to see law enforcement racial profiling in action.

How about showing us some of those statistics Ziggy understanding that statistically speaking, black men are more likely to commit a crime then a white man is.

To presume that we'd also need to presume that the arrest statistics you cite represent a system of justice that is not unbalanced by racial bigotry. For example, if well to do white folks were profilled for suspicion of having / dealing in powder cocaine at the same levels that poor blasks are profiled for suspicion of possession / dealing in crack cocaine, we would see a lot higher proportion of whites imprisoned for drug offenses than we do.

"What’s more, the search rates for black and Hispanic drivers were 10.64 and 10.24 respectively, as contrasted with a 4.32 rate for white ones."

"Once vehicles were examined, he said, the contraband rate for black and Hispanic drivers was 43.11 and 30.23, respectively, while it climbed to 47.7 for whites.".
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Panel to take look at racial profiling

By Mannix Porterfield
REGISTER-HERALD REPORTER

CHARLESTON — In West Virginia, a black motorist is 1.64 times as likely to be pulled over by a traffic cop than a white motorist.

Or, at least that finding held sway in a special study entailing 301,479 traffic stops between April 2007 and last September, and a legislative panel is looking into the numbers.

For instance, a Hispanic driver is 1.48 times more apt to be pulled to the curb.

What’s more, the search rates for black and Hispanic drivers were 10.64 and 10.24 respectively, as contrasted with a 4.32 rate for white ones.

Do the numbers paint a picture of police engaging in racial profiling in West Virginia?

Back in business after a two-year hiatus, the Select Committee on Minority Issues is determined to analyze the numbers and work with police officials to see what they mean.

And if they point to some nefarious attitudes by the men and women hired to “protect and serve,” the committee is resolved to make amends.

“The findings are significant,” says Franklin Crabtree, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union in West Virginia, in remarks before the panel this past week.

Crabtree’s exhaustive report showed that blacks and Hispanics were, respectively, 2.45 and 2.37 times more likely to have their vehicles searched than whites.

Searches yielded another interesting statistic, the ACLU leader noted.

Once vehicles were examined, he said, the contraband rate for black and Hispanic drivers was 43.11 and 30.23, respectively, while it climbed to 47.7 for whites.

http://www.register-herald.com/local/local_story_200232204.html

Seems you're portraying that study as if it were complete.

Crabtree said some thought was given to the prospects that poverty, not necessarily race, prompts some traffic stops.

“There are a lot of unanswered questions,” he said. “That’s one of them.”

House Judiciary Chair Carrie Webster, D-Kanawha, suggested Shott’s thoughts should be pursued, saying the committee needs to look at the entire spectrum of social and economic justice, and the panel’s co-chairman, Delegate Clif Moore, D-McDowell, agreed.

“We want to have a good by-product this time,” Moore said, emphasizing the panel wants to examine minority issues with regard to education, health, criminal and juvenile justice, and employment.

I would first question the number of stops. Given the population of this state, the number of stops seems a bit high to me.

Or, at least that finding held sway in a special study entailing 301,479 traffic stops between April 2007 and last September, and a legislative panel is looking into the numbers.

I find it a bit of a stretch that 1 in 6 motorist are stopped in WV. And if they are, why isn’t the stops sorted by race?

Of those alleged 300k plus stops, how many of them were Hispanics, which make up less then 1% of WV's population and how many were black, which make up just a little over 3% of the population state wide?

Given that whites make up almost 96% of the population of West Virginia and that there are likely other factors involved with the traffice stop, how can anyone expect this to be a comparative study that is even close to being accurate?

Without a breakdown of stops by race and the factors involved in the stop, the first thing I would question is the credibility of this study.

And until you have something credible, you're still batting zero Ziggy.

Got anything else?

Ziggy's also trying to compare WV with MA and racism is much more prevalent in WV than it is in MA.

Ziggy's also trying to compare WV with MA and racism is much more prevalent in WV than it is in MA.

Are you sure that racism is much more prevalent in WV than it is in MA?

I have not been to MA. But from most of what I read read, the geography of relative racism has reversed in the past half century or so. The strongest bastions of racism in America now appear to be in more northern rather than southern areas- especially northern cities.

I grew up in a county that had one black resident for a total of about 4 months. I NEVER went to school with black people.

I know live in a county that has less then 1% black population and the percentage of minority students is the same. When the breakdown was put out, we knew who the 2 Hispanic students were.

After graduating high school, I enlisted in the military which I was the minority. After the Army, I've drove a truck for many years and have also worked and been around large cities with much larger black populations then 3%.

In my time, I have found out three things. Blacks are just as racist as whites, racism among whites is more prevalent in areas with large minority populations and racism in whites increases the more they are around minorities.

But I see what you're saying about the study. I just don't think its a credible study regardless of who it is compared to.

There is not enough of a sampling of minority stops and not enough information given about the reason for the stops to give a true picture of what is really happening.

For instance, the study list the 10 worst counties on the list in which black people were more likely to have their vehicle checked then white. I took a look at the populations of each county and listed the total black population and percentage of each county from the 2000 census.

The report revealed that minority drivers were 2 1/2 to 6 times more apt to have vehicles searched than whites in these 10 counties: Calhoun, 6.93; (6 black people-.08%) Doddridge, 3.3; (18 black-.24%) Gilmer, 2.95 (64 black-.89%) Hardy, 3.5 (230-1.82%) ; Mason, 2.49 (129 black-.5%) Mineral, 2.56 (689 black-2.54%) Mingo, 3.2 (654 black-2.31%) Pleasants, 5.5 (36 black-.48%) Randolph, 3.04 (295 black-1.05%) and Wirt, 6.38 (17 black-.29%).

I hardly see how one can make a case for racial profiling in a county with 6 black people. And the worst on the list, Wirt, only had 17 black people. How can they definatively say that blacks are 6 times more likely to be searched then whites?

Others may accept this study as proof. I don't and neither should the WV legislature in making decisions on race relations.

ziggy wrote:, even if it did happen that way, Gates had every right to do so at his own home.

YUP, just like you have every right to shoot your wife if you are in your home, ..... RIGHT.

Men are often shooting their wives in their homes, ...... RIGHT?

Even wives have every right to shoot their husband if they are in their home, ..... RIGHT.

Women are often shooting their husbands in their homes, ...... RIGHT?

You are RIGHT, Zigster, ........ you are RIGHT you have that RIGHT.

And if no one proves you done it you won't be arrested for doing it.




Ziggy, you are such a lonely person I bet you argue with your dog about what you would like to have to eat for your supper.

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That is a lousy anaolgy, Sam.

It would be illegal for me to shoot my wife- at our own home or anywhere else.

It is not illegal for me to be uncooperative by running my mouth at my own home when a police officer has, as you said, concluded his legitimate business and is vacating the scene.

Gilmer, 2.95 (64 black-.89%)

Aaron, Glenville is a College town and the extremely high percentage of black students there are not counted as "resident population".

And Aaron, relative to said 64 blacks listed, now I don't know how they are listed on the Census but I do know there are quite a few black children residents of single mothers in Gilmer County, that are the result of mixed race copulations.

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There was a column for mixed race that I did not list. Gilmer County has 51 with two races. That would put the population slightly over 1% black.

Even if you take into consideration the ~1,300 college students at Glenville State University, 88% of them come from within West Virginia so of the remaining 150 or so, even if all are black, that would only take the black population up to ~300 which would still leave the percentage below 5%.

And the study is still not credible.

Do you have a better current such study?

I'm not the one making the claim. That would be you thus the burden of proof is on you. I merely pointed out the flaws in the one you cited.

Got anything else?

You have not shown that the study was "flawed". All you've shown is that you don't like the numbers.

ziggy wrote:

Ziggy's also trying to compare WV with MA and racism is much more prevalent in WV than it is in MA.

Are you sure that racism is much more prevalent in WV than it is in MA?

I have not been to MA. But from most of what I read read, the geography of relative racism has reversed in the past half century or so. The strongest bastions of racism in America now appear to be in more northern rather than southern areas- especially northern cities.

I never lived in MA, but have plenty of friends who live in the state and spent a lot of time there over the years. I can tell you some things I have heard and witnessed since living in WV that I NEVER heard or witnessed living in New England.

The worst example that comes to mind is from an extended family that lives near me. There are 3 brothers and their parents who all live on the same property with their families. The parents raised a granddaughter born to one of their daughters since the age of 4. One of her uncles refers to her as "the nigger". NEVER have I EVER heard anyone in New England call a family member that name. As a matter of fact, I have never heard any white person other than two of my uncles refer to anyone by that name, including the likes of OJ Simpson, Michael Jackson, and Al Sharpton who have been despised by a good number of my family, friends, and acquaintances for many years. I have heard blacks in New England refer to each other as that and I have heard other minorities refer to blacks as such but never, ever have I ever heard a white person use that term other than in a joke. Now you can dislike the jokes, say it's in bad taste, etc, but the term simply is not used up there.

In public places I have heard the word used......in businesses and public places right here in Putnam County more than once I have had people tell me I'm lucky to have moved to this area because there aren't too many blacks here and that's the way they like it. I was a child the last time I heard anyone say such a thing in RI, and that was one of the uncles I mentioned previously.

You want to know why the percentage of blacks is so much higher than whites in our prison system, listen to Bill Cosby. There's a black man who knows the truth and isn't afraid to speak it. He tells America what most blacks are unwilling or unable to admit, even to themselves. Making excuses for their poor choices and their bad behavior doesn't help their youth and their communit one little bit.

How many white people were pulled over and then subsequently searched versus how many black people were pulled over and subsequently searched Ziggy?

If you can’t provide a link to the data that shows those statistics, then it’s not a study, its nothing more then anecdotal evidence which is hardly credible.

Got anything else?

http://www.wvdcjs.com/trafficstops/reports/OverviewofStatewideFindings2009.pdf

Now you have a study. A flawed and incomplete study but it is a study none the less.

The first problem is there were no reasons given for why the vehicles were stopped to begin with. And once they were stopped, no information was given as to why they were searched.

The disproportionate percentage of minority stops is another problem. If you read the study, you would see that it acknowledges the discrepancies in the number of black motorist stop compared to white motorist. There simply is not enough data to make an accurate comparative analysis.

Statewide the majority of drivers stopped by law enforcement were white (93.8%). Black drivers accounted for just 4.3% of stops. Less than 2.0% of all drivers were of some other race.

And then you have the number of stops that were rejected for the study. Initally, a third of all stops were rejected with no reason given. Such a large number could have easily swayed the analysis in either direction.

The “predictions” in this study relied on disproportionate stops, did not include nearly a quarter of all traffic stops and as such, there is no way to accurately claim racial profiling as you do Ziggy.

And then there is one last reason why this study is flawed. If it wasn’t and you though it was valid, it wouldn’t have taken you 7 hours and being called out two times to produced the data.

It’s a good start and definitely some good reading but there’s no question, its incomplete thus it is flawed data and doesn’t prove what you say it does. Even ACLU Franklin Crabtree acknowledges this as he admits there are still “a lot of unanswered questions” regarding the study.

Got anything else?

What I find truly troubling about this study is that WV law enforcement is searching WV residents at a rate of nearly 25 times per day.

Once stopped, only 4.6% of all accepted stops resulted in some type of search. A total of 13,990 searches of vehicles, drivers, and/or passengers were conducted over the 18-month period between April 2007 and September 2008.

And the vast number of these searches are done without a search warrant. Our 4th amendment rights have been so diluted that when my oldest was stopped, he was told that "if he had nothing to hide" he would consent to the search and that if he didn't, they would get a warrant. He conceded, was handcuffed, placed in the back of police crusier and his car turned inside out with nothing put back where it came from.

The other was in a car with 4 other college students, was pulled over for "swerving", all 5 occupants were pulled out of the car and the vehicle search because the officer had "probable cause", saying he "smelled" marijuana in the car.

Our problem isn't that law enforcement is disproportionately searching vehicles of blacks or vehicles of Hispanic; I think our biggest problem is that law enforcement is disproportionately searching all vehicles and that is what outrages me.

My husband was stopped several times by Putnam County deputies on his way to and from work. Every time he was asked if they could search his vehicle and he always asked, "Do you have a warrant?" The deputy du jour would typically respond, "Well, I can call a K-9 unit over here and if the dog points on your car.." and he'd tell them to get the dog.

One morning a deputy that had stopped him 3 times previously told him he couldn't leave because he was calling for the K-9 unit. That jerk made him wait there for 45 minutes finally returning to say he couldn't get the damn dog there. This outrageous behavior only stopped after a co-worker, who works part-time as a deputy in another county, who knows the idiot called him.

I am convinced this would have continued probably until this day. It sure as hell wasn't his race. It could be because the jerk lives a few miles from us out here in the middle of nowhere and my husband was new to the area. It could be because he has long hair and a goatee. Whatever the reason, it had absolutely nothing to do with race and I assure you my husband wasn't driving with anything illegal in his car on his hour long commute to work or his hour long commute from work.

If a cop stopped me and asked to search my vehicle, I'd ask for the warrant too. They do these things because we allow them to.

And then there is one last reason why this study is flawed. If it wasn’t and you though it was valid, it wouldn’t have taken you 7 hours and being called out two times to produced the data.

So are you suggesting that in those 7 hours I somehow generated a bogus study and got it on the internet in a pdf format- which my computer does not even have writing software to enable same- and then onto a WVCDLS website to which I do not have posting ability, all on a Sunday afternoon?

It’s a good start and definitely some good reading but there’s no question, its incomplete thus it is flawed data and doesn’t prove what you say it does.

Yoiu really need to get rid if your hangups about "prove" and "proof". You are always claining that you "prooved" this or that, or that someone else did not "prove" this or that. "Prove" and "proof" are words that I rarely use. And I did not do so here. That is because absolute proof of anything is nearly impossible. So I rarely claim "proof". I did not say that the study prooved anything. But it is evidence related to the discussion we're having.

Well now, you all do whatever turns your crank, but if I was still driving a lot I would make sure I always carried a digital camera w/video capabilities with me at all times.

And if stopped by an Officer I would activate said and when said Officer approached I would immediately pre-inform him/her that I was recording said “meeting” for both Legal and safety reasons and if he/she had a problem with that then their Supervisor should be called to be a witnessing party to said meeting.

And if I lived in an urban area like Kanawha or Putman Counties I would have that “wireless” Internet feature for “live transmission” of that video to my PC at home.

But even if I didn't, ....... I would imply that I did.

Let one of those clowns attempt to lie there way out of that.



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