Deja Duke--all over again.

ziggy wrote:
So are you suggesting that in those 7 hours I somehow generated a bogus study and got it on the internet in a pdf format- which my computer does not even have writing software to enable same- and then onto a WVCDLS website to which I do not have posting ability, all on a Sunday afternoon?

No, I'm saying you knew the study was incomplete and flawed and that’s why you didn’t provide the link when you did the story from the Beckley paper.

ziggy wrote:Yoiu really need to get rid if your hangups about "prove" and "proof". You are always claining that you "prooved" this or that, or that someone else did not "prove" this or that. "Prove" and "proof" are words that I rarely use. And I did not do so here. That is because absolute proof of anything is nearly impossible. So I rarely claim "proof". I did not say that the study prooved anything.

How is expecting one to back up what they say a hang-up? When it gets right down to it, all any man every really has is his word and part of that is making accurate statements.

Besides, you’re the one who has said numerous times when a claim is made that the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Why should you not have to abide by the same standards?

And since it was you who made the claim about WV law enforcement officials disproportionately targeting blacks over whites, by your standards the burden of proof lies with you.

ziggy wrote:But it is evidence related to the discussion we're having.

That's the thing, its not evidence. At best, its historical data and it's incomplete. Even Crabtree admitted as much.

There is such disproportionate factors in the data gathered that it is difficult at best to make a valid comparative analysis, especially when there are so many rejected stops during the time period that were not considered. That is why the study is incomplete. The reason it is flawed is that there is a lot of information that needs to be considered that isn't including what led to the stop, type of car and the reason for the the search.

Age and sex both play a factor as well and even though younger males were pulled over at higher rates and searched at higher rates, neither of those factors were mentioned in the article.

As I said, it's a good starting point, but it's certainly not evidence of the claim you’re making.

Got anything else?

Besides, you’re the one who has said numerous times when a claim is made that the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Why should you not have to abide by the same standards?

I say that only as a reply when you or someone else ask me to "prove" that the negative of an expressed opinion- whether mine or someone else's- is not true.

Is is nigh impossible to absolutely "prove" anything- especially to the satifsfaction to anyone who his determined to discard the best evidence available anyway.

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:
So are you suggesting that in those 7 hours I somehow generated a bogus study and got it on the internet in a pdf format- which my computer does not even have writing software to enable same- and then onto a WVCDLS website to which I do not have posting ability, all on a Sunday afternoon?

No, I'm saying you knew the study was incomplete and flawed and that’s why you didn’t provide the link when you did the story from the Beckley paper.

I did not know and I do not believe any such thing.

I had seen the article a few days ago, and recalled it. I looked for and found the more direct study report after you correctly and fairly observed that a news article about a study is not a study.

ziggy wrote:

Besides, you’re the one who has said numerous times when a claim is made that the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Why should you not have to abide by the same standards?

I say that only as a reply when you or someone else ask me to "prove" that the negative of an expressed opinion- whether mine or someone else's- is not true.

Is is nigh impossible to absolutely "prove" anything- especially to the satifsfaction to anyone who his determined to discard the best evidence available anyway.

Who is determined to discard the best evidence available?

In the case east hand, you seem to be.

Do you have a better study to show us?

First, seeing the obvious discrepancies in the study you posted and pointing them out is not disregarding anything, it's simply stating facts and B) I'm not the one apologizing for blacks and making claims so why do I need to provide a study?

You don't need to provide anything.

In the meantime, this study is what we have. You may not think that it is the best possible study. And maybe it isn't. So if you've got a better one, bring it on.

As I don't believe WV law enforcement is disproportionately targeting blacks so there's nothing to bring on.

If you wish to keep posting material to try and support your very flimsly claim, I'll give it a read but I certainly hope it's better then then flawed, incomplete study you posted last night.

What else you got?

Anything???

Well, so far I have offered more than you have.

So now it's your, or someone else's turn.

You're the one making the claim Ziggy so you're the one who's got to back it up.

I already have. You got anything to counter it?

Ok. That's OK.

We knew you wouldn't have.

This is what you do Ziggy. You make braggadocios statements and holier then thou comments from your throne up on high in Jackson County, acting as if your motive is pure and your cause is just.

You apologize and excuse any action that would require personal responsibility and try to blame the ills of the world on everything and anything that doesn't agree with your Marxist views instead of where it actually belongs, the individual.

And 9 times out of 10, your tripe is manure and when that is pointed out, instead of taking a stance on an issue or admitting you're wrong, you start playing word games and insist on double speak and we know you've got nothing else when you start with the one liners and snide remarks.

You're the one that made the claim here. You provided an article to back it up. I pointed out that wasn't a study.

You found a study of which I pointed out was flawed, so much so that the director of theWVACLU admitted as much.

But instead of admitting that it is flawed and that your claim is nothing more then your opinion, you continue to act as if you know more then anyone else.

I hate to be the one to break it to you Ziggy but you've been exposed for the charlatan you are and you don't know what you're talking about.

I will say that if you want to see true racism as it exist today, then you should take a tour of any this great cities inner cities. See what 80 years of "entitlement" has done to a community that 400 years of slavery couldn't. And while you're at it, you might actually see who the real victims are and what a lack of personal responsibility gets you.

Or you can keep blowing smoke from your throne on high and I'll continue to expose you for what you are.

Your choice.

Aaron wrote:
And if you really want to see how rampant racism is today and where it originates, try spending some time in any of our wonderful inner cities in and around the minority communities you insist are the victims.

Southeast Washington, D.C. would be a good place to start.

August 3, 2009

By Gary Harki
Staff writer
Advertiser
CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- A former Montgomery police officer is suing the town and his former police chief, claiming shifts he had requested were given to other officers because he refused his superior's orders to harass the city's black residents.

According to the lawsuit filed in Kanawha Circuit Court, Gary Perdue says shifts he wanted were either given to other officers or eliminated, starting last November.


The shifts were given to officers with less seniority and "with a more aggressive approach against the African American citizenry of the City of Montgomery," according to the lawsuit.


Perdue, who has also served as the chief of police in nearby Smithers, names the city of Montgomery and former police chief Pete Lopez as defendants.


Perdue's lawyer is Mike Clifford, who has filed at least four other lawsuits against Montgomery police since October. The others also named former Montgomery police officer Matthew Leavitt as a defender.


Last month, former Montgomery officer Matthew Leavitt pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor civil-rights violations in federal court. Leavitt pleaded to beating Twan Reynolds with a slapjack, or small club, and illegally charging his wife, Lauren Reynolds, with driving under the influence.


Leavitt admitted to hitting Twan Reynolds, who is black, in the head with the slapjack. He was also accused of licking the neck of Lauren Reynolds, who is white, and saying, "Little whore, you like it like that."

http://wvgazette.com/News/200908030673

July 18, 2001
INCARCERATION RATE MUCH HIGHER FOR BLACKS THAN WHITES


On any weekday morning, dozens of people are crowded on four


benches, tucked into corners and any available space in the waiting area


for Kanawha County Magistrate Court.



Most of them are black.



"It's apparent if you look around the courthouse at the huge body


of folks in magistrate court that there is an overrepresentation of


African-Americans," said Barbara Brown, a Kanawha County public defender.



On Tuesday, the U.S. Census Bureau released data that shows that


more than one-third of the people behind bars in the Mountain State are


black, though blacks make up only about 3 percent of the general


population.



In 10 years, the black portion of people behind bars has jumped


more than 10 percent. Of the 10,505 people incarcerated in West Virginia,


6,727 are white and 3,663 are black.



The rate is even higher among black women, who make


up nearly 44 percent of the state's incarcerated females. Overall, 18


percent of the people behind bars in West Virginia are women.



One out of every 16 black people in the Mountain State is behind


bars. One out of every 10 black men is incarcerated.



Comparatively, one out of every 255 white people is behind bars.



West Virginia counted 4,439 people in correctional institutions in


1990. The number of whites incarcerated in the state has doubled in the


last decade; the number of blacks behind bars has more than


tripled.



The new Census data show that the disproportionate numbers start


with the youth jail population and feed into the adult population.



Last month, a report released by Carol Sharlip of the American


Friends Service Committee showed that black youths in the state go to jail


in greater proportions than white youths. Black children make up only 4


percent of the state's population, but more than 50 percent of the


juveniles tried in adult court in 1999 were black.

http://wvgazette.com/News/Census2000/200107180007

I read the Montgomery story and one of the since deleted comments stated that Leavitt and Purdue used to be partners and implied Purdue had something to cover up and apparently something is or was going on in Smithers where he was or is police chief.

They caught one cop and I'm not saying he was alone in this but all and all, this story really seems a little fishy to me.

As for the incarceration rates, I'll have to do some research but I won't have time for a few days. You'll have to wait.

Could it be because a larger percentage of blacks are committing violent crimes than whites?

ziggy wrote:July 18, 2001
INCARCERATION RATE MUCH HIGHER FOR BLACKS THAN WHITES

Ziggy, Now I will betcha a $1 against a half eaten donut that iffen youse was to check the "hospital incarceration" rate in WV ...... you would find it HIGHER for senior citizens than for any other age group.

Do youse have any idea as to why that would be?




.

Stephanie wrote:Could it be because a larger percentage of blacks are committing violent crimes than whites?

Hey steph,

Obviously so. And rather than try to confront the actual causes of high crime in the inner city (parents not home, glorification of sex and violence, counterproductive public schools) liberals blame gun manufacturers, slavery that was banned 150 years ago, and George W Bush.

Stephanie wrote:Could it be because a larger percentage of blacks are committing violent crimes than whites?

It could be.

Or it could be that the statistics on that are skewed because blacks are disproportionately singled out for prosecution of crimes- crimes that result in longer prison terms.

Do you really believe that there would not be more white people in prisons than there are now if the police went after white folks with powder cocaine with the same zeal they go after black folks with crack cocaine? And somehow the prison sentences are significantly longer for crack than for powder cocaine. Now, maybe it's my ignorance about any kind of cocaine, but why should prison sentences for crack be longer than for powder?

A senior Justice Department official urged Congress on Wednesday to lower the mandatory minimum prison sentence for the sale and possession of crack cocaine to match the punishment for powder cocaine, eliminating arbitrary sentencing disparities that have resulted in many more African-Americans’ being jailed for longer terms.

“Most in the law enforcement community now recognize the need to re-evaluate current federal cocaine sentencing policy and the disparities the policy creates,” the official, Lanny A. Breuer, the chief of the Criminal Division in the Justice Department, testified before the Crime and Drugs Subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Under current federal laws, conviction for the sale and possession of 50 grams of crack cocaine is punishable by a mandatory minimum of 10 years in prison; it takes 5,000 grams of powder cocaine to trigger the same punishment under the guidelines.

Mr. Breuer said that as of 2006, 82 percent of people convicted of federal crack cocaine offenses were African-American, and 9 percent were white. In that same year, 14 percent of federal powder cocaine offenders were white, 27 percent were African-American and 58 percent were Hispanic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/us/30cocaine.html

Ziggy,

I favor the decriminalization of all drugs, and the legalization of most.

I oppose the government dictating what we can and cannot do with our bodies and it upsets greatly that the government chooses to punish people for addiction. The way I see it if my government insists on taxing us because some people make bad choices, it would be far more productive to spend that money on treating their addiction than incarcerating them for a medical condition.

My understanding is the "logic" (notice the quotes) behind the difference in sentencing guidelines has nothing to do with race and everything to do with addiction rates. Powder cocaine simply isn't as addictive as crack cocaine.

In any event, law enforcement is only targeting the drug Congress has directed them to target. I'm sure if race is the motivating factor in this disparity and the Black Congressional Caucus will work in conjunction with our black POTUS and our black AG to remedy this particular problem pdq.

The reality of the situation is most people, black and white, residing in our prisons today are not doing federal time for cocaine related offenses. The vast majority of people in our prisons today are incarcerated for crimes against other people, crimes with real victims and in blacks commit these crimes with greater frequency than other racial groups. Mike listed some of the reasons why that is.

So my question is, would you prefer our justice system slap them on the wrist and say, "oh you've been naughty......robbing/raping/killing but you've had a bad start in life so we forgive you", or would you rather have them segregated from the rest of society where they can't victimize more innocent people? Keep in mind, most of the victims of black criminals are black themselves.

ziggy wrote:
It could be.

Or it could be that the statistics on that are skewed because blacks are disproportionately singled out for prosecution of crimes- crimes that result in longer prison terms.

Do you really believe that there would not be more white people in prisons than there are now if the police went after white folks with powder cocaine with the same zeal they go after black folks with crack cocaine? And somehow the prison sentences are significantly longer for crack than for powder cocaine. Now, maybe it's my ignorance about any kind of cocaine, but why should prison sentences for crack be longer than for powder?

While there was a discrepancy in the sentencing guidelines, I don't know that law enforcement went after powder dealers with any less zeal then they did rock dealers. At least there is no proof of that in what you've mentioned.

If anything, it may have been more as you can still go to any inner city street corner and find a rock dealer on at least two of the corners where as it's a little harder to find the powder ones. Those you might actually have to drive around for 3 or 4 minutes.

At any rate, that the Supreme Court ruled in December (which was BEFORE your article was posted) that judges can impose shorter sentences matching powder guidelines and at least 4 people were released early under new sentencing guidelines.

That issue was addressed BEFORE Obama took office and before the article you referenced was printed.

Ziggy,

On drug matters I might well agree with you (and with Steph that drug policy itself should change) that there is unfair disparity between black and white arrest and incarceration rates.

However, as to violent crime, especially murder, there is no "contest" here. Look at how violent Chicago's inner city has been this year (and note that we have the nation's most restrictive gun control as well).