Good news for Democrats and Progressives??

Steph,

I'm not getting into a debate about the right or wrong of Isreal becoming a nation. The Jewish and Palenstiens have been fighting for that land since the time of Abrahan. Jesus Christ coudln't solve the problems and bring peach so I have little faith any American or the UN can.

I was merely trying to point out that Shiite hatred towards America dates back to the US support of Israel in 1948 and too much has happened since then to lead me to think that if we just pull out, everything will be hunky dorey. I don't buy it and neither do Sunni lead nations such as Jordan and Egypt, both of whom now have relative peace with Israel.

I would suggest you do some research on the Shiite/Sunni conflict but I don't think you would give it any credeance. I think you've got your mind made up and your unwilling to change it.

Once again, thankfully those that make the decisions don't think as you and Frank do.

I merely pointed out that legally, the Jewish people were on their land when they were attacked in 1948, which is when Isreal was restored to a Jewish state.

By what authority, other than Aaron, was Israel on their own land in 1948?

Aaron,

In the past you have insisted the US must protect Israel. You seem to think we have some deal signed in blood or something. This simply is not true.

No, I don't expect the people who have endured every kind of human suffering because of US policy decisions, US money, and US military intervention are suddenly going to become our strongest allies.

What I do expect is they will turn their focus from the US once we are no longer in their faces making their lives impossible each and every day. Instead, they will focus on dealing with the remaining goverments and forces making their lives a living hell. That's what I expect.

Sure they hate us. Who can blame them? Your answer is to continue to provide them with more reasons to hate us. Your solution is to continue with the failed policies of the past that have cost so many their lives and their liberty. Your solution is to continue doing for the next 60 years what has brought us, and them, nothing but heartbreak for the past 60 years.

That was Albert Einstein's definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. It's time to try something new.

Aaron wrote:I merely pointed out that legally, the Jewish people were on their land when they were attacked in 1948, which is when Isreal was restored to a Jewish state. The signifance is, that is when Arabs, led by and sustained by Shiite, first attacked Israel. That was their goal in 1948 and that is their goal 60 years later, in 2008. That is the signifance of 1948 and the Shiite, which was my point.

Got it Frank?

Not quite. So are you saying that being attacked for being on that land in 1948 made it "their land"?

I'm not getting into a debate about the right or wrong of Isreal becoming a nation.

So, even if Israel hadn't become a nation in 1948, that would have still been Israel's land in 1948?

Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer. I've been waiting for days for a response over in the Bin Laden thread.

Stephanie,

I answered your question on the Bin Laden thread. I didn't realize there was a question out there. Sorry.

As to Frank first question of what made the land Israel's in 1948, that would be the United Nations Partition Plan.

As to the second, pre 1948, it was Britian's land due to the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW1 which authorized by the League of Nations under the Treaty of Sevres to divide land gained from the Ottoman Empire among the Allied victors. They gave authority to Britian under the Mandate of Palestine all land that is currently Israel and Jordan.

Hope that helps Frank.

Aaron,

Neither the UN Partition Plan, nor the Treaty of Sevres, or Balfour Declaration, or the Palestine Mandate, alters the fact that for centuries the Arabs occupied that land. Some of those families had been farming that land for centuries. Who governed the territory and how they obtained that control doesn't alter that fact.

Even under the notoriously brutal Turks the indigenous people of the region weren't treated with the savagery and brutality they have endured these past 60 years. Make no mistake about it, what Britain and the UN did, with US consent, was arbitrarily hand over land belonging to Arabs to Jews.

Why are Jews so much more important than Arabs? What makes them so special? Certainly anyone with even a cursory knowledge of Jewish suffering at the hands of the Nazis is cause for sympathy. However, victimizing another people won't fix that. All it does is create more suffering. Two "wrongs" never make a "right".

What really upsets me most of all is the Jewish cry of "Never again". I have said this before and I will say it again, they need to revise that little sound byte of theirs. It should be, "Never again unless we are the perpetrators".

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

When most young men & women volutarily sign up for military service, they do so with the understanding they are serving THEIR nation, protecting THEIR people.

HORSEFEATHERS, ...... you're dreaming ........ or watching too many "recruitment ads" on TV.

HELLS BELLS girl, most young men & women don't think about "protecting THEIR people" when they are in school or out wandering the streets and byways of America.

So just what makes you think they would join the Military to do something they wouldn't do otherwise?

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Stephanie wrote:Hmmm......

Would a special, self-segregated bus line be ok here in the USA?

If the blacks wanted one ........ it would.

They get their very own Student Centers on Campus, ...... don't they?

And their very own Caucus in Congress, ...... don't they?



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ziggy wrote:
If claims to land from the histories of centuries long past make ownership, then the homes where you and I live are not ours at all- nor even that of our ancestors- but someone else's altogether.

Well Zigster, why don't you move to Long Island, NY ...... and buy yourself a piece of property ......... then you can claim such ownership ..... if that is what's bothering you so much.



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Stephanie wrote:Yeah, so who cares about the hundreds of thousands of human beings they displaced, right? Why concern ourselves with the fact that 60 years later, many of the survivors are still refugees?

Stephanie, I would think that anyone who was such an avid proponent of "America First" ........ would be more concerned about the plight of the Native Americans "First" .......... and the plight of the Palestinians "Secondary".

But what the hell do I know?


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SamCogar wrote:

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

When most young men & women volutarily sign up for military service, they do so with the understanding they are serving THEIR nation, protecting THEIR people.

HORSEFEATHERS, ...... you're dreaming ........ or watching too many "recruitment ads" on TV.

HELLS BELLS girl, most young men & women don't think about "protecting THEIR people" when they are in school or out wandering the streets and byways of America.

So just what makes you think they would join the Military to do something they wouldn't do otherwise?

.

I'm not dreaming or watching recruitment ads. My husband and I have a nephew who joined the army because he wants to protect our country. While I concede he wasn't your average 18 y/o, I've come to know the young man quite well over the past 9 years and this was his intention.

We had to beg him to go to college first and at least go in as an officer. His poor mother cried over this for 3 months until he finally relented. So he graduates college in a year and then it's off to where ever the army sends him. I still want to cry over this.

ziggy wrote:

I merely pointed out that legally, the Jewish people were on their land when they were attacked in 1948, which is when Isreal was restored to a Jewish state.

By what authority, other than Aaron, was Israel on their own land in 1948?

Zigg, go back and click on that url I furnished you, then close your eyes and click on something you can't read ........ and have your wife read it to you.



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SamCogar wrote:

Stephanie wrote:Yeah, so who cares about the hundreds of thousands of human beings they displaced, right? Why concern ourselves with the fact that 60 years later, many of the survivors are still refugees?

Stephanie, I would think that anyone who was such an avid proponent of "America First" ........ would be more concerned about the plight of the Native Americans "First" .......... and the plight of the Palestinians "Secondary".

But what the hell do I know?


.

I'm beginning to wonder just what you do know.

As an avid proponent of America first, what I concern myself with is what we can do to keep America and Americans safe. The best way I can see to go about doing this, is to quit picking sides, and arming other nations, and making more enemies, and manufacturing suicide bombers and other terrorists, and toppling governments, installing regimes, and on and on and on until there is nothing left.

I find it rather ironic that in this country, as a people, we have in recent decades regretting our nation's treatment of the indigenous people of North America during the birth of our nation. As a result of this, certain laws have been passed and programs created to try to compensate the decendents of the victims of atrocities committed against them, in many cases hundreds of years ago.

All the while we are funding and supporting the ethnic cleansing of the Holy Land by the Israelis. So it was wrong for us to do it to the "Indians" and we must pay for that now. Yet it's perfectly acceptable for Zionists to do likewise to the Arabs with US bullets, bombs, machinery, and money.

SamCogar wrote:

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

When most young men & women volutarily sign up for military service, they do so with the understanding they are serving THEIR nation, protecting THEIR people.

HORSEFEATHERS, ...... you're dreaming ........ or watching too many "recruitment ads" on TV.

HELLS BELLS girl, most young men & women don't think about "protecting THEIR people" when they are in school or out wandering the streets and byways of America.

So just what makes you think they would join the Military to do something they wouldn't do otherwise?

.

My underlying reason for joining was to get money for college. But I had enough sense about me to know what was going on in the world. If anything, my children are MORE aware then I was. Those that raise their hands, the 1% that serve, do know what's going on in the world today and they join for a variety of reasons.

The other 99%, well, yeah, I'm sure a good bit of them are out wandering the streets and byways of America.

There is no greater service to this great country then to defend America. Thank god for that 1% that's got the intestinal fortitude to serve, huh Sammy!!!

Stephanie wrote:
We had to beg him to go to college first and at least go in as an officer. His poor mother cried over this for 3 months until he finally relented. So he graduates college in a year and then it's off to where ever the army sends him. I still want to cry over this.

If I were you I wouldn't be crying too much about it.

If he goes in with a College Degree I seriously doubt they will be handing him a helmet, bullet-proof vest and a rifle ....... and sending him off to stand guard duty on a street corner in Iraq.





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Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

Neither the UN Partition Plan, nor the Treaty of Sevres, or Balfour Declaration, or the Palestine Mandate, alters the fact that for centuries the Arabs occupied that land. Some of those families had been farming that land for centuries. Who governed the territory and how they obtained that control doesn't alter that fact.

Even under the notoriously brutal Turks the indigenous people of the region weren't treated with the savagery and brutality they have endured these past 60 years. Make no mistake about it, what Britain and the UN did, with US consent, was arbitrarily hand over land belonging to Arabs to Jews.

Why are Jews so much more important than Arabs? What makes them so special? Certainly anyone with even a cursory knowledge of Jewish suffering at the hands of the Nazis is cause for sympathy. However, victimizing another people won't fix that. All it does is create more suffering. Two "wrongs" never make a "right".

What really upsets me most of all is the Jewish cry of "Never again". I have said this before and I will say it again, they need to revise that little sound byte of theirs. It should be, "Never again unless we are the perpetrators".

That particular geographical location is been fought for and had so much blood spilled that today's actions don't even compare. It's been going on since the dawn of time and I don't think either side can say they've always been right and the other wrong.

I merely pointed out what started this current trend and has led to US involvement, that's all. I'm not getting into the debate of who's land it is or who's right and who's wrong between the Jewish people and the Palestine’s. Hell, history has shown, that the only way to control EITHER side is by strict occupation. So would that be acceptable to you?

Aaron wrote:There is no greater service to this great country then to defend America. Thank god for that 1% that's got the intestinal fortitude to serve, huh Sammy!!!

YUP, because it is that 1% from whence the Chief Master Sergents and Officers are garnered ...... without which you would have nothing to defend America with.

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SamCogar wrote:

Stephanie wrote:
We had to beg him to go to college first and at least go in as an officer. His poor mother cried over this for 3 months until he finally relented. So he graduates college in a year and then it's off to where ever the army sends him. I still want to cry over this.

If I were you I wouldn't be crying too much about it.

If he goes in with a College Degree I seriously doubt they will be handing him a helmet, bullet-proof vest and a rifle ....... and sending him off to stand guard duty on a street corner in Iraq.





.

That depends on his major and his job assignment. 2nd LT'S generally aren't given much consideration for assignments. They go where they're needed.

SamCogar wrote:

Aaron wrote:There is no greater service to this great country then to defend America. Thank god for that 1% that's got the intestinal fortitude to serve, huh Sammy!!!

YUP, because it is that 1% from whence the Chief Master Sergents and Officers are garnered ...... without which you would have nothing to defend America with.

.

That 1% is all service members. The SENIPOR Officers and CMS's are those that are left over after the one timers, misfits and rest are weeded out.

His degree will be in law enforcement. Are they going to make him an MP? Doesn't everyone hate those guys?

Yes, I still want to cry. We love Josh and want him safe and home here in the US. He is very intelligent and a kind person with an amazing sense of humour.

He'll probably start out as an MP, whose primary mission in Iraq is security.

Aaron wrote:

That particular geographical location is been fought for and had so much blood spilled that today's actions don't even compare. It's been going on since the dawn of time and I don't think either side can say they've always been right and the other wrong.

I merely pointed out what started this current trend and has led to US involvement, that's all. I'm not getting into the debate of who's land it is or who's right and who's wrong between the Jewish people and the Palestine’s. Hell, history has shown, that the only way to control EITHER side is by strict occupation. So would that be acceptable to you?

I have yet to hear or read about anyone badmouthing and berating the Catholic Church ..... for the FACT that they were the 2nd European power to send foreign troops into Palestine to take control of the land and the people.

And the sand ran red with with the blood of the dead and dying.

.

Sam,

The Church committed all kinds of atrocities against people of that region. I can't fix that. Nobody can fix that.

We can stop sending money and munitions to Israel though.