The Sorry State of Education

SamCogar wrote:Yeah, just like I lied you into the Nam War.

No, Lyndon Johnson did that- or tried to. But I beat him at his own game.

Try again.

Well, Sammy........I believe this should be reported to the appropriate authorities. If parents left their sick 12 y/o children at a highway rest area at 5am CPS or whatever name it goes by here would be called. If a daycare provider did such a thing their license would be revoked.

Actions have consequences. Isn't that what school authorities are always telling the kiddos? What consequences do you suppose this cast of characters will face for their actions?

Stephanie wrote: What consequences do you suppose this cast of characters will face for their actions?

They will be warned and threatened ..... to not do it again.

ziggy wrote:

SamCogar wrote:Yeah, just like I lied you into the Nam War.

No, Lyndon Johnson did that- or tried to. But I beat him at his own game.

Try again.

Explain this Zigster.

The Gulf War that you and the Bush Hating Democrats did not protest ……

verses ……

the Iraq War that you and the Bush Hating Democrats protested.

Gulf War ----145 killed, ……. 467 wounded ….. 1990 - 1991
Iraq War - 4,256 killed, … 30,182 wounded …. 2003 -2009




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SamCogar wrote:

ziggy wrote:

SamCogar wrote:Yeah, just like I lied you into the Nam War.

No, Lyndon Johnson did that- or tried to. But I beat him at his own game.

Try again.

Explain this Zigster.

The Gulf War that you and the Bush Hating Democrats did not protest ……

verses ……

the Iraq War that you and the Bush Hating Democrats protested.

Gulf War ----145 killed, ……. 467 wounded ….. 1990 - 1991
Iraq War - 4,256 killed, … 30,182 wounded …. 2003 -2009

The primary difference is in the difference between President George HW Bush- who knew 1st hand what war was about- and the incompetent shrub GW Bush- who hid out in the Alabama National Guard during Vietnam; and between guys like the quite able commander General H. Norman Schwarzkopf, Jr. and impotent twits like Donnie Rumsfeld.

There were indeed protests against the Gulf War.

Operation Desert Storm was not a "patriotic triumph" for many U.S. citizens. Numerous Americans silently disapproved of the war, while others defiantly created a movement of Gulf War dissenters. By the late 1990's the recognition of these protests had faded from the public's consciousness. On top of this amnesia among the general citizenry, some insightful peace scholars have minimized the size of the protests. For example, peace historian Charles Chatfield (1992) wrote, "So brief and militarily successful was the [Gulf] war . . . that no significant opposition evolved" (p xi) and Sociologists Sam Marullo et. al. (1996) said that the Gulf War inspired only a brief "'minisurge' in peace activism." (p. 10).

http://www.geocities.com/gulfprotestsbib/

The difference between GW1 and GW2 Ziggy wasn't Storming' Norman, it was the difference bewteen bombing an invader out of a country and fighting an actual war.

Sr. didn't fight a war, he repelled an invasion force and drove them back across the border with a hundred days or so of bombing Iraqi ground forces with some thing like 90,000 tons of bombs, destroying everything in sight including tanks and supply lines to the point that Iraqi's vaunted Republican guard surrendered to reporters in exchange for food.

ziggy wrote: The primary difference is ........... the incompetent shrub GW Bush- who hid out in the Alabama National Guard during Vietnam; .......... and impotent twits like Donnie Rumsfeld.

You did good Ziggster.

I just knew a Bush Hating Democrats would admit to their part in the Iraq War problem.

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SamCogar wrote:

wvsasha wrote:There are a lot of factors that go into why classrooms are difficult today - most everyone has an opinion on what is the biggest reason.

But by god, if I had acted the way then that kids act now --- I wouldn't have lived to see 16.

Even though I knew my parents would have killed me, ........

Interesting that you know what the root problem is ....... but you really only addressed it concerning yourself.

Sam - who else would I have addressed it to? Who else am I responsible for - my own children of course - and I feel sure they feel the same way as I did as quoted by the statements I made above.

I am not responsible for the at-home-raising of students I have. I am not their mother. I will draw the line there.

But I go into the classroom with the students I have, not the students I wish I had. (To paraphrase someone famous about war and soldiers....)

It does me no good to wring my hands over the kids' home training. All I can control is what they are taught/exposed to for the time I have them every day and hope that something sticks.

Aaron wrote: No matter how many seminars you send them to, at their core, they are and will always remain teachers.
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I for one don't think a principal should be a principal without putting several years into the classroom.

and FYI - in WV you must have an administration degree (master's level) before you can become a principal or v.p.

SamCogar wrote:
Well I am definitely sure that there are at least two on this Forum that will support their actions.

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I sure as hell hope you aren't counting me as one of those.

I think they *all* should be given, at the least, an unpaid vacation of several weeks.

Here's my question - since the parents were "ok" with their children being left, who called the news papers and tv media?

wvsasha wrote:

Aaron wrote: No matter how many seminars you send them to, at their core, they are and will always remain teachers.
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I for one don't think a principal should be a principal without putting several years into the classroom.

and FYI - in WV you must have an administration degree (master's level) before you can become a principal or v.p.

What does being in the classroom or having a degree teach somone about managing a school or leadership?

First of all, I'm not buying that the parents were "ok" with having their children left at a highway rest stop an hour's travel time away at 5am.

However, let's just assume (don't you just love that word?) they were...

Perhaps one of the sick children abandoned by those entrusted with their care on the side of the highway did it.

What does being in the classroom or having a degree teach somone about managing a school or leadership?

Would you make a military General out of someone who had no previous military experience?

Shush, Ziggy.

Don't you know wars are more important than children?

Stephanie wrote:Shush, Ziggy.

Don't you know wars are more important than children?

*snort*
Thanks Steph! My computer screen appreciates the Mt. Dew spray.....

Aaron - I understand that there is more to being a principal than what being a teacher entails. And I've had principals who have been teachers in their previous life and they still weren't worth a hoot-n-holler. I have no desire to be a principal - I would miss the kids too much. But since the principal makes so many decisions which directly and immediately impact my job - I feel they have to have had the experience of being a teacher to be able to understand what impact they are about to have and what type of havoc they are about to wreak.

When someone gives me constructive criticism or advice, it is valid if and only if, they have "walked the miles in my shoes" before giving their advice. I wouldn't give much credence to advice from a childless person about parenting. I wouldn't change my prescribed medication because my high school dropout neighbor said so.

However, even the occassional blind hog finds an acorn - so I will consider what is said, give it the weight due, and proceed accordingly.

I need to have confidence in my principal that s/he will lead & represent myself and my cohorts to the Board well as well as know that s/he is a caring and intelligent educator first - and an administrator second. The students' welfare must come first.

YVW, Sasha. I couldn't help myself.

wvsasha wrote:
I need to have confidence in my principal that s/he will lead & represent myself and my cohorts to the Board well as well as know that s/he is a caring and intelligent educator first - and an administrator second. The students' welfare must come first.

I agree. Which is why I question teachers managing schools. He's not there to represent you or your cohorts but to make sure the kids are getting what tax payers are paying for, the best education the can possibly get.

We're not getting that now and part of the reason is there are far too many principals spending far too much time representing teachers instead of children.

And you still didn't answer my question. Other then representing you and your cohorts, what qualifications does teaching offer in leadership and management?

ziggy wrote:

What does being in the classroom or having a degree teach somone about managing a school or leadership?

Would you make a military General out of someone who had no previous military experience?

Yes, if they were qualified.

Do you have a point?

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

What does being in the classroom or having a degree teach somone about managing a school or leadership?

Would you make a military General out of someone who had no previous military experience?

Yes, if they were qualified.

And what "qualifies" one to be a military general? What qualifies one to be a school administrator?

I hardly think that a former bank officer or former military commender is any more qualified, by experience, to be a school principal any more than a 6th grade teacher is qualified, by experience, to be a bank officer or a military commander.

The answer to your questions, first and formost, is easy. Leadership.

What qualifies a teacher to manage a multi-million dollar school?

Perhaps you should purchase this book. You might learn something.

Aaron wrote:The answer to your questions, first and formost, is easy. Leadership.

What qualifies a teacher to manage a multi-million dollar school?

JUST being a teacher doesn't make one a leader. However, the experience of being a teacher prepares one in a way that no other profession really can. I don't want my leader to be able to just SYMPATHIZE with me, I want them to be able to EMPATHIZE with my role. To understand and comprehend our day to day difficulties and struggles. To be able to know exactly which issues are really the ones that are worth that limb to go out on, and which to pass up for another day.

My father is a retired military officer - he retired as a full colonel. My husband retired as a Master Sargent. My husband was requested several times to go to OTC (Officer Training Corps) because of his education and leadership capabilities (he's also a teacher in his day job). My husband declined for various reasons. However, by and large, his favorite (and most of the best, in his opinion) officers were ones who had been enlisted ranked BEFORE they became officers because they knew exactly what they were asking of their troops. They knew how to present it to the troops and what effect it was going to have on them. Sometimes they were able to mitigate issues because they knew of potential problems BEFORE the problems would arise BECAUSE they had "been there done that" as enlisted men. Sometimes they couldn't.

I want my principal to be able to do that. I want him/her to have the experience of being in front of a classroom of students, over 1/2 of whom are labeled this or that, with this and that mandate from the state, with parents wanting more and more contact with the teacher, and the national Powers That Be demanding higher test scores with fewer resources. I want him/her to know that.

It gives them "street creds", to put it in the vernacular, and thus ability for a faculty to be more willing to accept them at their word when they are handing down something else.

Is classroom experience the only thing that makes an effective principal? Heck no. I've seen a couple lousy teachers go on to become really good administrators -- now that was strange to watch, let me tell you! But if the principal doesn't have it, it's much harder to do their job effectively.

wvsasha wrote:
JUST being a teacher doesn't make one a leader. However, the experience of being a teacher prepares one in a way that no other profession really can. I don't want my leader to be able to just SYMPATHIZE with me, I want them to be able to EMPATHIZE with my role. To understand and comprehend our day to day difficulties and struggles. To be able to know exactly which issues are really the ones that are worth that limb to go out on, and which to pass up for another day.

Why does a principal need to empathize or sympathize with a teacher? I thought their job was to manage all aspects of their school. You talk as if he/she is a personal representative for teachers and that's not the case, is it?

There is one other thing here. For some reason the focus is as if I said principals should be required to be retired military and that is just not the case.

Aaron wrote:If you really want to fix education, ban teachers or anyone who has ever served or been affiliated with the teachers unions from becoming administrators and hire leaders to manage our million dollar schools. I would suggest career military people to start with but I certainly wouldn't limit myself to them.

I think many would be shocked to find the number of career business men and women who would jump at the chance to manage a school later in life, especially if they've done very well in the business sector and are looking to give something back.

I do favor the military because I know that to achieve a high rank, whether it be enlisted (career NCO's rarely get past the rank of E-6 if they have no leadership qualities as time of service only get you so far) or officer (rarely past Major based on time of service) , takes a certain amount of leadership ability as well as other traits including but not limited to discipline, respect, honor, commitment, integrity as well as how to develop, guide and mold young men and women.

But there are many from the business world that would do a wonderful job in our school system if given the chance. Unfortunately we don't do that and imho, our children suffer.

As far as I'm concerned, those should be traits we DEMAND of our educational leaders but for some reason we don't.

Now I get why a comrade like Ziggy is opposed to this idea as he HATES the military and all that it stands for as most good Marxist do.

What I don’t understand why a teacher would oppose having a leader with the traits I described unless their only concern is how the administrator will represent t the teachers. I don't suppose you could help me out on that one as well as answer my previous question.

Aaron,

I am opposed to this idea because running a school requires more than just being a leader. Running a school requires understanding learning disabilities. It requires understanding instructional techniques. Running a school requires some knowledge in psychology and a myriad of other things that men and women retired from careers in the business world or the military simply are not going to possess. An effective school administrator does more than evaluate teachers and discipline students.

This idea of using retired people from other fields comes up periodically.

Like using retired chemists from Carbide to teach H.S. chemistry..

But they forget that just knowing the subject matter does not mean you can communicate it to youngsters.

Like someone said above you need to understand child development, maybe a little psychology, etc. and most important have some people skills and patience.

Same way with supervisors.

A military officer gives orders and people are expected to comply.

A school system is not and should not be operated on that model.

It would not do much good to give a kid an order to learn trigonometry.

Nor would it do any good to order a teacher to make a child understand it.

I read an article one time about Pres Eisenhower and how frustrated he got when he got elected and had to try to make the civilian bureaucracy work.

He was used to giving orders and when he said jump they said how high.

But in the real world you won't get too much done with that attitude.