Re: The Sorry State of Education

by Aaron Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:12 am

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

I am opposed to this idea because running a school requires more than just being a leader. Running a school requires understanding learning disabilities. It requires understanding instructional techniques. Running a school requires some knowledge in psychology and a myriad of other things that men and women retired from careers in the business world or the military simply are not going to possess. An effective school administrator does more than evaluate teachers and discipline students.

I disagree with you for a number of reasons but I'll list just a few. First and foremost, if you think leaders aren't teachers, then you need to do some looking into leaders. The best are often the most influential teachers and do so in the same manner that a good teachers teaches; by leading the student to where then need to be to understand what they are learning in a way that is neither demanding or controlling. That is not the easiest quality and if anyone is to succeed and get ahead in any field and not just go along, it is a trait they must learn.

As for running a school, I would venture to say that retired career professionals, whether it be from the military, business or even teaching not only possess much more "knowledge in psychology and a myriad of other things" then a 30 year old teacher with a masters in administration who's spent ~6 years in the classroom, they've likely forgot more then that teacher of whom we are 'promoting' into leadership has acquired.

I understand the resistance from teachers like Sasha or their spouses like Sodbuster. I understood that as soon as I mention military Ziggy would oppose. I must say thought that I’m a little surprised by your naiveté.

by **Stephanie** Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:45 pm

Perhaps I'm not the naive one, Aaron.

I didn't say good teachers and good principals are not leaders.

What I said is that being an effective leader in business or the military does not mean you're going to be an effective school administrator.

There is more to the job than handing out suspensions and managing a budget.

by Aaron Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:58 pm

Stephanie wrote:Perhaps I'm not the naive one, Aaron.

I didn't say good teachers and good principals are not leaders.

What I said is that being an effective leader in business or the military does not mean you're going to be an effective school administrator.

There is more to the job than handing out suspensions and managing a budget.

You've said retired business people and retired military are NOT going to be effective school administrator and thus they shouldn’t be allowed to. At least that’s what I’m getting from your post. If I’m wrong, show me where.

What I am saying is that a retired professional will make a BETTER administrator then a teacher but we don't consider those type of people. We REQUIRE, among other things, for our administrators be a teachers.

I'm not naive enough to think that EVERY retired professional will make a good principal but I don’t think they should be disqualified simply because they are not teachers.

I think that is wrong as I believe their loyalty lies with their colleagues and not with the school system and I do not for a second believe that makes them effective. IMO, Sasha as much confirmed this when you stated that she wanted a principal who represented her to be able to emphasize with her, not sympathize with her.

I want a principal that puts the teachers LAST, behind the students, the parents, the tax payers and yes, the budget.

by SamCogar Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:23 pm

sodbuster wrote:But in the real world you won't get too much done with that attitude.

That is right, .... you won't get too much done with that attitude ...... because the School System ....... is not the real world.

If the employees don't want to do something, they just give you a smile ....... meaning shove it up your ass because they don't have to.

There is literally hundreds of millions of dollars wasted each year in the Public School System of WV. And that is because neither the Teachers, Service Personnel, the Principals or Superintendents give a shit.

And the primary reason they don't give a shit ........ is that it has been occurring for so long that they either can't see it and/or they simply accept it as standard and approved practices.

There is no accountability of anything by any body ....... and that is why they need School Managers ...... and not School Principals. Just like many Cities have hired City Managers to manage their cities.

School Managers do not need to know the details of what a School Employee's job is, .... the School Employee, especially Teachers, knows what their job entails and if they don't do their job then they should be fired.

by Aaron Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:40 pm

I'm glad to see someone gets it.

by **Stephanie** Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:42 pm

Aaron,

A retired business or military "leader" would require a whole lot of additional training and quite a bit of mentoring to be an effective school administrator. You can't pluck somebody out of the CEO's office and stick them in the principal's office. You can't just pluck a teacher out of her 1st grade classroom, or her physics class and stick them in that office either. Both are doomed to failure.

Good managers value good employees and put those that perform well in a position of priority. They aren't at the bottom of the shit heap. I'm surprised you don't know that.

by Aaron Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:44 pm

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

A retired business or military "leader" would require a whole lot of additional training and quite a bit of mentoring to be an effective school administrator.

Why and what type of training?

by SamCogar Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:54 pm

Stephanie wrote:A retired business or military "leader" would require a whole lot of additional training and quite a bit of mentoring to be an effective school administrator.

HORSEPUCKY

That would only be true if you wanted them to
administer exactly the same as
those currently doing the administrating.

Now that would be a big improvement.

The Sorry State of Education - Page 4 33948

The Sorry State of Education - Page 4 33948

.

by sodbuster Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:57 pm

deleted

by Aaron Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:11 am

I would be interested in what you deleted Sodbuster. I think this is an interesting conversation.

by SamCogar Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:41 am

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

A retired business or military "leader" would ...... Both are doomed to failure.

Good managers value good employees and put those that perform well in a position of priority. They aren't at the bottom of the shit heap. I'm surprised you don't know that.

OH, I now see where you are coming from, Steph.

You are absolutely right.

If one placed any really good business or military managers in charge of the operation of a Public School ......... they would fail miserably.

The "value of good school employees" ....... is not worth the price of a cup of coffee.

.

by wvsasha Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:17 pm

SamCogar wrote:

The "value of good school employees" ....... is not worth the price of a cup of coffee.

.

I rarely take anything I read on message board personally - but I am going to take offense at this statement Sam. I know you probably won't give a rat's ass, but that hurt.

Sad

by **Stephanie** Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:59 pm

Sasha,

Don't take what Sam has said personally, or literally.

Sam's wife is not a teacher but she is a school employee. I'd bet my eye teeth he believes her work is worth a whole lot more than a cup of coffee. I know I do.

by wvsasha Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:11 pm

Stephanie wrote:Sasha,

Don't take what Sam has said personally, or literally.

Sam's wife is not a teacher but she is a school employee. I'd bet my eye teeth he believes her work is worth a whole lot more than a cup of coffee. I know I do.

I don't usually and I do know that about his wife - and I guess that's what surprised me so much about his statement. He does value his wife's work and he chose to make that statement anyway.

by Aaron Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:15 pm

Aaron wrote:
Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

A retired business or military "leader" would require a whole lot of additional training and quite a bit of mentoring to be an effective school administrator.

Why and what type of training?

by ziggy Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:26 pm

wvsasha wrote:
SamCogar wrote:

The "value of good school employees" ....... is not worth the price of a cup of coffee.

.

I rarely take anything I read on message board personally - but I am going to take offense at this statement Sam. I know you probably won't give a rat's ass, but that hurt.

And were it just usual message board blather, it could be dismissed as sour grapes- or as sour cream in Sam's coffee. But Sam really believes his own rants of rabid hatreds.

by **Stephanie** Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:02 pm

Let's see, depending on their previous experience these things will likely include:

child psychology, curriculum development, IDEA laws, Title IX, grant writing, public policy, public funding, government, state education law, and No Child Left Behind for starters.

by Aaron Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:15 pm

And teachers learn all of these things by teaching in a classroom?

by wvsasha Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:59 pm

Aaron wrote:And teachers learn all of these things by teaching in a classroom?

usually it's trial by fire....some is learned in college classes, some is learned at the lunch table, some by those dreaded inservice days....but most is by time spent in the classroom everyday.

by SamCogar Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:07 pm

Well now, it is no wonder we have serious problems in our schools and serious problems with those who think they understand and know how to fix the problems in the schools.

GEEEZUS, they all have one-track minds with tunnel vision …… and can’t remember what the hell they are reading from one sentence to the next ….. or remember what they hear from one spoken sentence to the next.

That is why a girly-man or female never laughs at a joke if it is more than a “one liner”. If more than one (1) line they don’t/can’t remember the “lead in” and therefore the ending makes no sense to them. They are only capable of focusing on one (1) thing at a time and anything else is completely ignored and forgotten.

And here is a prima example of said, to wit:

wvsasha wrote:
SamCogar wrote:The "value of good school employees" ....... is not worth the price of a cup of coffee.

I rarely take anything I read on message board personally - but I am going to take offense at this statement Sam. I know you probably won't give a rat's ass, but that hurt.

See what I mean, …. focused on, … remembered only, …. one (1) sentence. One (1) sentence out of nine (9) sentences.

But great minds work alike, ……. to wit:

Stephanie wrote:Sasha,

Don't take what Sam has said personally, or literally.

Sam's wife is not a teacher but she is a school employee. I'd bet my eye teeth he believes her work is worth a whole lot more than a cup of coffee. I know I do.

And then there are those who “egg things on” for their own benefit and are the most pathetic human beings of all, to wit:

ziggy wrote:And were it just usual message board blather, it could be dismissed as sour grapes- or as sour cream in Sam's coffee. But Sam really believes his own rants of rabid hatreds.

Now here is my post again, ……. all nine (9) sentences. And all nine (9) have meaning in my post and that is why I included all nine (9) of them. They are not separate and distinct from each other, …… they are all conjoined relative to the context of my post. And like a joke greater than a “one liner”, …… if you can’t remember the “lead in” lines …… then there is no way in hell you will be able to understand the “punch line”.

So, re-read my post again, all nine (9) sentences, to wit:

SamCogar wrote:
Stephanie wrote:A retired business or military "leader" would require a whole lot of additional training and quite a bit of mentoring to be an effective school administrator. …… Both are doomed to failure.

Good managers value good employees and put those that perform well in a position of priority. They aren't at the bottom of the shit heap. I'm surprised you don't know that.

OH, I now see where you are coming from, Steph.

You are absolutely right.

If one placed any really good business or military managers in charge of the operation of a Public School ......... they would fail miserably.

The "value of good school employees" ....... is not worth the price of a cup of coffee.

Sure, good managers value good employees and put those that perform well in a position of priority.

Sure they do, in private businesses, ……… but they sure as hell can’t do that in our Public School System. There ain’t no way in hell they can do that and I don’t know why smart asses or a college educated Professional would think they could.

The "value of good school employees" don’t mean shit when it comes to a “position of priority”. It don’t mean shit because “seniority of years worked”, nepotism and politics outranks the hell out of “employee value”.

And that is a fact ....... and you all know damn well it to be.

And people wonder why students ain't learning a damn thing.

.

by ziggy Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:37 pm

SamCogar wrote:And then there are those who “egg things on” for their own benefit and are the most pathetic human beings of all, to wit:

ziggy wrote:And were it just usual message board blather, it could be dismissed as sour grapes- or as sour cream in Sam's coffee. But Sam really believes his own rants of rabid hatreds.

So then Sam, are you suggesting that you don't believe your own rants?

by Aaron Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:57 pm

Stephanie wrote:Let's see, depending on their previous experience these things will likely include:

child psychology, curriculum development, IDEA laws, Title IX, grant writing, public policy, public funding, government, state education law, and No Child Left Behind for starters.

wvsasha wrote:
Aaron wrote:And teachers learn all of these things by teaching in a classroom?

usually it's trial by fire....some is learned in college classes, some is learned at the lunch table, some by those dreaded inservice days....but most is by time spent in the classroom everyday.

OSHA, MSHA, 300 logs, incident rates, lost time rates, UCMJ, CFR's, business law, employee development, employee's in the workplace, capax, risk management, public policy, public funding, government, state and local law, DEP, EPA, and every other government agency.

Yeah, I can see how someone could master any/and/or all of the above but somehow public education would baffle them beyond all comprehension.

Rolling Eyes

Neither of you have given any evidence that being a teacher has an advantage over someone from the business community.

Keep trying.

by **Stephanie** Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:32 pm

For crying out loud, Sammy, I'm not a mind reader.

I see where you are coming from and agree whole-heartedly on that score.

Ziggy, Sam is correct and I agree with him and I don't understand why you boys must continue to antagonize each other.

Sheeesh sometimes you guys are more work than my kids.

by **Stephanie** Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:36 pm

Aaron public schools are not factories. They should not be battlefields, although I concede some are. I wish I could say screw it because my children are done with public school so wth do I give a flying crap for but I can't. We can't because we have to live in society with what they produce and because they are children and somebody needs to look out for their best interests and it's obvious to me the AFT, the NEA, the WV Legislature, and the federal government are not going to.

Sometimes you're as thick as a brick.

Don't you just love the way Sammy got one over on me though? lol

No wonder why I'm so fond of that guy.

by Aaron Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:32 am

I'm only thick as a brick when I'm right. Ask Sam, he'll tell you on this one I am.

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