Federal Judge Prohibits Prayer at Texas Graduation Ceremony

Aaron wrote:I doubt she is. She's been a homeroom mom for 5 years now, one of those overly involved parents and she said she's never seen the 10 Commandents in school.

She's correct, my mistake. It is the Pledge, that is posted. I'm not certain how I arrived at the 10 commandments, but I did.

Frankly, Aaron, I'm not a fan of the 4 minute public prayer. It is one thing (and a very important one) for "two or three" to be gathered in prayer for a good bit of time, and we all need time to devote to God each day. If someone is reading from some "prayer script," I find ten thousand problems with it before the Constitutional question even comes up.

I do see the difference, granted, but I don 't see why talking to God should be treated differently than talking about Him. I think the charitable thing to do would be for the person about to pray to say something to the effect of "for those so inclined, join me in prayer."

I teach at two Catholic universities, and yet I am very sensitive to those who are not Christian (let alone Catholic). At Christmas time, about time for break, I say "for those of you inclined, Merry Christmas, for everyone else, enjoy the time off all the same." Once I had an atheist student I loved to dawg, so I wished him a Merry "nothing in particular." Everyone giggled at the gag and he was an A student.

SheikBen wrote:Frankly, Aaron, I'm not a fan of the 4 minute public prayer. It is one thing (and a very important one) for "two or three" to be gathered in prayer for a good bit of time, and we all need time to devote to God each day. If someone is reading from some "prayer script," I find ten thousand problems with it before the Constitutional question even comes up.

I do see the difference, granted, but I don 't see why talking to God should be treated differently than talking about Him. I think the charitable thing to do would be for the person about to pray to say something to the effect of "for those so inclined, join me in prayer."

I teach at two Catholic universities, and yet I am very sensitive to those who are not Christian (let alone Catholic). At Christmas time, about time for break, I say "for those of you inclined, Merry Christmas, for everyone else, enjoy the time off all the same." Once I had an atheist student I loved to dawg, so I wished him a Merry "nothing in particular." Everyone giggled at the gag and he was an A student.

Those are all fine and well Mike but a graduation is a school planned, school led function and those that are not inclined must either leave or suffer through it. We both know that leaving is not an option as those in charge have not in my experience even given them an opportunity to leave. To do so, they would have to halt the proceedings, wait on everyone to leave and then when the prayer is done, halt the proceedings again and wait for everyone to return to their seats.

I've never seen that happen, have you? As for the reason why talking TO God is different then talking about him, that's simple.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Common law and case precedents have already acknowledged that a public school official allowing public school time, facilities or events is establishment of religion. You many not agree but that is a fact.

And while you may be sensitive to others feelings, not everyone is. There are many who just don't care about the feelings or rights of others and believe their rights exceed those of everyone else and it because of them that we have the laws we do.

After all, let’s say one of those Catholic institutions you teach at required you to practice Catholicism but you were an employee of the state and your course was financed by public money. Should you really be forced to adhere to their religion or give up your job? What if it was an Islamic School and you were contracted to teach there?


There is no difference then that and what we are discussing.

let’s say one of those Catholic institutions you teach at required you to practice Catholicism but you were an employee of the state

Yesssssss, Michael, ..... hurry up, ...... I'se wanna read your reply to that statement.

Aaron wrote:
Those are all fine and well Mike but a graduation is a school planned, school led function and those that are not inclined must either leave or suffer through it. We both know that leaving is not an option as those in charge have not in my experience even given them an opportunity to leave. To do so, they would have to halt the proceedings, wait on everyone to leave and then when the prayer is done, halt the proceedings again and wait for everyone to return to their seats.

Seems to me all of this has been made a two way street by the courts. If we go by what the courts have ruled, people are prevented from recognizing their God and and giving thanks and if we don't go by what the courts says some say they are forced to participate in something to which they disagree. No matter how you slice it, this all comes down to the law being used to force one person's view on another.

What I fail to uderstand is and what makes me so angry is the lack of respect one towards another. I have a major dose of heartburn with all denominations. I have to been a many events both public and private where a denominational preacher has got up and had the invocation, spoke and invoked God, or had the closing. While I detest denominationalism and their preachers, I have just let what was being said go in one ear and out the other. When they have lead prayer, I have just not participated. There are others at the event that do beleive in or participate in some denomination, I respect that and keep my mouth shut. It is my opinon and view they ahve every right to speak their mind, just as I have a right to speak mine. Nothing says I have to listen or participate.

Aaron wrote:
After all, let’s say one of those Catholic institutions you teach at required you to practice Catholicism but you were an employee of the state and your course was financed by public money. Should you really be forced to adhere to their religion or give up your job? What if it was an Islamic School and you were contracted to teach there?

If the school is a Catholic School it should not be receiving public money. If it is then both it and the agency providing the money are in violation of the very laws you are discussing.

Of course if he is a state employee and is contracted by the school to teach a course, then they cannot legally require him to be catholic or islamic. If however, the case was that the school could make that requirement, then speaking personally, I won't teach there.

Aaron wrote:

SheikBen wrote:Frankly, Aaron, I'm not a fan of the 4 minute public prayer. It is one thing (and a very important one) for "two or three" to be gathered in prayer for a good bit of time, and we all need time to devote to God each day. If someone is reading from some "prayer script," I find ten thousand problems with it before the Constitutional question even comes up.

I do see the difference, granted, but I don 't see why talking to God should be treated differently than talking about Him. I think the charitable thing to do would be for the person about to pray to say something to the effect of "for those so inclined, join me in prayer."

I teach at two Catholic universities, and yet I am very sensitive to those who are not Christian (let alone Catholic). At Christmas time, about time for break, I say "for those of you inclined, Merry Christmas, for everyone else, enjoy the time off all the same." Once I had an atheist student I loved to dawg, so I wished him a Merry "nothing in particular." Everyone giggled at the gag and he was an A student.

Those are all fine and well Mike but a graduation is a school planned, school led function and those that are not inclined must either leave or suffer through it. We both know that leaving is not an option as those in charge have not in my experience even given them an opportunity to leave. To do so, they would have to halt the proceedings, wait on everyone to leave and then when the prayer is done, halt the proceedings again and wait for everyone to return to their seats.

I've never seen that happen, have you? As for the reason why talking TO God is different then talking about him, that's simple.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Common law and case precedents have already acknowledged that a public school official allowing public school time, facilities or events is establishment of religion. You many not agree but that is a fact.

And while you may be sensitive to others feelings, not everyone is. There are many who just don't care about the feelings or rights of others and believe their rights exceed those of everyone else and it because of them that we have the laws we do.

After all, let’s say one of those Catholic institutions you teach at required you to practice Catholicism but you were an employee of the state and your course was financed by public money. Should you really be forced to adhere to their religion or give up your job? What if it was an Islamic School and you were contracted to teach there?


There is no difference then that and what we are discussing.

My course is financed by public money. Some students are getting their tuition paid by municipalities, and still others are on a GI bill.

If either school wished me to practice Catholicism, it would be their right as Catholic universities, and then my right to look for work elsewhere.

No, it is not their right if they are getting public money. They can not use public money to in any way promote religion. That is what the 1st Amendment states.

UH, who pays the cost of the limos and Secret Service Agents that accompany the POTUS to church on Sundays?

Are you stating the 1st Amendment does not prevent the establishment of religion?

Aaron wrote:No, it is not their right if they are getting public money. They can not use public money to in any way promote religion. That is what the 1st Amendment states.

Then there are hundreds of colleges presently in violation.

I play a trick on my students. I ask them if they believe that vouchers should be used for private education. Many tell me no. I then ask them if they are on any federal grants to attend the (Catholic) university. They then say "d'oh!" This would not be a funny story except that I'm not Catholic.

SamCogar wrote:UH, who pays the cost of the limos and Secret Service Agents that accompany the POTUS to church on Sundays?

And God forbid Obama pray while on government time or property. As long as we are prohibiting freedom of speech of a religious context at public gatherings, we might as well threaten arrests for mentioning global warming.

No one said Obama couldn't pray Mike and I think you know that. What he can't do is promote one religion over another. That's not freedom of speech and you know that as well.

SheikBen wrote:

Aaron wrote:No, it is not their right if they are getting public money. They can not use public money to in any way promote religion. That is what the 1st Amendment states.

Then there are hundreds of colleges presently in violation.

I play a trick on my students. I ask them if they believe that vouchers should be used for private education. Many tell me no. I then ask them if they are on any federal grants to attend the (Catholic) university. They then say "d'oh!" This would not be a funny story except that I'm not Catholic.

What Catholic schools are forcing students to attend mass and/or convert to Catholicism Mike?

At graduation, there are most definitely the benedictions that you react against.

If they're federally or state funded then they are in violation of the 1st Amendment.

U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1 - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

re•spect (r -sp kt )
tr.v. re•spect•ed, re•spect•ing, re•spects
1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with:
3. To relate or refer to; concern.

es•tab•lish•ment/iˈstabliSHmənt/Noun
1. The action of establishing something or being established.
2. The recognition by the state of a national church or religion.

rec·og·ni·tion/ˌrekigˈniSHən/Noun
1. The action or process of recognizing or being recognized, in particular.

Congress shall make no law ..... To feel or show deferential regard for .... or .... To relate or refer to ..... The recognition by the state of a national church or religion.


So the question is, ..... just what does the awarding of Grant monies to a school have anything to do with passing a Law that stipulates the Religious affilation of said school is thereafter deemed and/or shall be the national religion of the US?

SamCogar wrote: So the question is, ..... just what does the awarding of Grant monies to a school have anything to do with passing a Law that stipulates the Religious affilation of said school is thereafter deemed and/or shall be the national religion of the US?

The fact of the matter is it doesn't. It is alot like Jim Bakka, Libertarian said, It only took around 70 years for people to begin to trash the US Constitution.

You are absolutely correct on your post. However, a US Supreme Court along with a number of administrations have raped the first amendment to the point it is truly meaningless. But that is what people want, it seems.

SheikBen wrote:

Aaron wrote:No, it is not their right if they are getting public money. They can not use public money to in any way promote religion. That is what the 1st Amendment states.

Then there are hundreds of colleges presently in violation.

I play a trick on my students. I ask them if they believe that vouchers should be used for private education. Many tell me no. I then ask them if they are on any federal grants to attend the (Catholic) university. They then say "d'oh!" This would not be a funny story except that I'm not Catholic.

I missed this post Mike. I'm not so sure that a school that takes grant money awarded TO A student to pay for tuition is the same thing as being federally funded. I don't know if the courts have addressed this issue (I'll do some research later as I'm not curious) but for me, the benefit is given to the student, not the school and that student can take that grant money anywhere he wants to go.

Also, I'm not so sure this is the same thing as a public high school as with college a student has a choice whereas the same cannot be said for a high school where attendance is not only mandated by the state but also where a student must attend is at the very least, partially mandated.

And it's certainly not the same thing as a public high school allowing one prayer at graduation. I think if you go back and read my original post on this topic, you will see that I have no problem with a Christian prayer if a Jewish, Muslim and other religious prayers are allowed.

SamCogar wrote:So the question is, ..... just what does the awarding of Grant monies to a school have anything to do with passing a Law that stipulates the Religious affilation of said school is thereafter deemed and/or shall be the national religion of the US?

I don't know nor did I ever say it does.

Aaron wrote:If they're federally or state funded then they are in violation of the 1st Amendment.

There is a difference between a students grant money and federally funding of a program or a school.

Aaron,

If the valedictorian is a Muslim, let her thank allah. I may not like it, but then again, I'm neither the valedictorian nor the one who can tell others what to say.

SheikBen wrote:Aaron,

If the valedictorian is a Muslim, let her thank allah. I may not like it, but then again, I'm neither the valedictorian nor the one who can tell others what to say.

That is the great thing about FREE Speech. You are 110% correct in your view.

SheikBen wrote:Aaron,

If the valedictorian is a Muslim, let her thank allah. I may not like it, but then again, I'm neither the valedictorian nor the one who can tell others what to say.

How many times do I have to say I have no problem with a student giving thanks or that a student giving thanks in not the same thing as conducting prayer?

Seriously Mike. I know you're smarter then that.

Aaron wrote:

SheikBen wrote:Aaron,

If the valedictorian is a Muslim, let her thank allah. I may not like it, but then again, I'm neither the valedictorian nor the one who can tell others what to say.

How many times do I have to say I have no problem with a student giving thanks or that a student giving thanks in not the same thing as conducting prayer?

Seriously Mike. I know you're smarter then that.

You do understand if they choose to pray it is no different than giving thanks, don't you?

When it's listed in the program, that's not choosing to pray. What about that do you not understand?

You have to help me, here, Aaron, because the court's injunction was not against something listed on the program, but rather against certain words being used by individuals speaking, is it not?